Armored Mewtwo in PvP

Hi all, long time no talk.

For as brutally disappointing in PvE as Armored Mewtwo is, in PvP this thing has potential.

Confusion is awesome, Dynamic Punch means you aren’t Tyranitar/Dialga switch in bait, Rock Slide hits Lugia, Earthquake keeps coverage on Dialga, still hits T Tar gard and bops Heatran and Metagross.

But that’s just the thing- for those using Armored Mewtwo, what moveset have you picked for it?

I’m looking to round off a Master League team with Mewtwo mixed with a legacy Snorlax, and probably a Groudon or maybe a Kyogre to clean up late game.

I’m thinking Confusion is the obvious weapon of choice for fast move. But what for charged moves? Rock Slide is Mewtwo’s cheapest move and gets great coverage, Dynamic Punch gets important coverage on Dark and Steel so Mewtwo isn’t helpless vs them. Mewtwo’s dynamic is as a tank who takes hits endlessly and fires off strong attacks, kind of like Cresselia in lower leagues. Future Sight is its strongest option in neutral situations that Mewtwo is supposed to excel in. Earthquake seems like a middle ground approach; strong neutral damage that, unlike FS, doesn’t give up coverage against important targets.

Thoughts?

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EQ and FS are very risky options because they cost 65 energy to use, and Mewtwo should be able to demolish anything weak to Psychic by pure fast move damage.
So go for RS+DP.

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I would also go with Confusion/Rock Slide/Dynamic Punch.

Confusion is pretty much a given, since Iron Tail is pretty terrible in PvP even if the user gets STAB (which Mewtwo doesn’t). Earthquake really only adds coverage against Electric since Confusion, Rock Slide, and Dynamic Punch cover all the other types that Earthquake would hit. Also, since Confusion hits like a truck as-is, Future Sight isn’t really all that necessary.

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It still looks too weak stat wise to be a big masters, it’s stats are worse than lugia and without sky attack. And lugia isnt even that big a name in masters anymore since togekiss is wrecking every punchyfool (and big lizard sideways)

It’s got moves, yes, but it’s stats leave much to be desired, having even less attack than the prior mentioned lugia. A mewtwo A rockslide won’t flinch the bird wall.

It could do well in ultra, but wait… Giratina. This mewtwo also possesses nothing to threaten Ghost types, Oldmewtwo has shadow ball or ice beam, and while rock slides a good move, it’s again coming off the, ehem, lower than aggron attack stat. If it had something to threaten Giratina, it could be good, since it plagued Armewtwo in both leagues

Why worry about Mewtwo at all !!! If it’s completely useless as you constantly preach… Besides according to you no one is ever going to raid Mewtwo in any form if doesn’t have Shadow Ball

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I’ve given up on this Mewtwo, I have the capacity to safely do it myself: 40; 40; 38; 38. Pokedex says I caught 64 Mewtwo. But right now I’d rather do a shinx or Scyther and hope for a shiny, only active raid area here is the college campus…still summer, I don’t want to walk around a college campus, I dont want to load extra phones. Got a regular 15a/14/15 shinx today, fine with that.

Dynamic Punch to hit T Tar and having a stronger fast move lets it stand out from Lugia to a decent degree.

And a single Sky Attack won’t do much in return. I imagine Armored Mewtwo wins the 1 v 1 assuming neutral shield situation.

Yeah… Awkward fit in Ultra for sure. Doesn’t really beat Giratina counters, does horribly against Giratina, and doesn’t stand out against Giratina’s pals either.

I was meaning the rockslide wouldn’t flinch lugia as in it wouldn’t do much to it, keep in mind lugia also runs dragon tail, so armored mewtwo actually loses to lugia assuming same shields.

Dynamic punch might hurt tyranitar, but it can still survive it, and at pretty sizable HP remaining too.

Its stats are just too weak, even with the double effective dymanic punch, it cant beat a tyranitar unless its a smackdown set and shields are dropped (but even then, mewtwo wins at 1 HP, so it needs to be a perfect mewtwo armored, and tyranitar cant have any extra energy)

Aha! Some comprehensive numbers. Thank you for going to the trouble of doing that.

Where do you do that, anyway? I’d be interested to potentially access that myself if possible.

PvPokes

But yes, even with DP agaisnt tyrantiar, armored mewtwo’s is armored trash there, and doesnt help that its got worse stats than lugia while not having any of what made lugia good. So glad it if finally gone from raids and a useful pokemons descended to answer our praise for a raidboss thats good

PvPoke still rates AM2 as #8 in Ultra though…not sure if that justifies you calling it “armored trash”.

But yeah, it’s screwed in Masters. I’d rather use normal Mewtwo there.

altaria’s ranked number one for GL, and is rarely seen outside limited cups becase despite high marks, essentially every team has so many things that kill it, so high ranking doesnt mean much. In ultra specifically for mewtwo A, ehem Giratina Exists, as do the number of dark types meant to counter it, not to mention cresselia has been a tanky psychic there and it hasnt made much of an impact despite directly having the toolkit to threaten giratina.

PvPoke’s ranks have always seemed off.

Yes Giratina does exist, but outside of Giratina? The whole meta doesn’t just center around Giratina and its counters. AM2 shreds anything weak to Psychic (namely Venusaur, Poliwrath and a few others), as well as demolishing a couple of other stuff like Swampert and Cresselia. In most neutral matchups AM2 should have a high win rate due to its huge defense.
And one more thing, the most crucial one: Don’t expect everyone to play the top stuff in each League. My friends are examples. In every single UL battle I had with them, I always use the same team: Tina-Origin, Blastoise and AM2. Win rate? 100%. Even when they adjust their team to perfectly counter mine, switching exists, and let’s not mention ML when all I see on their team is just dragons, dragons, and dragons everywhere. Yes, your friends may be PvP masters, but face it, those who don’t PvP are the vast majority.

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It still loses to cresselia, while cresselia also shreds those same things, armored mewtwo does similar things to cress. Its a cress substitute

Yes, a team may win 100%of the time, but that doesnt mean is isnt improvable. Even when not bringing the most meta pokemon, the top of the meta still tend to win, since they are the best of the best in that league. Switching does exist, but that can be just as much a liability as a help, potentially swapping one bad match up for worse one.

yes, and Togekiss with charm exists, thats why it beats so many masters teams, since dragons overrun the majority since they are kinda the best, they beat most everything eligible, thats why metagross was such a crucial pokemon to have until Charmkiss came.

We are pretty much talking about the people who know the meta and know PvP. Since a victory over someone who doesnt know the meta well and isnt bringing a meta team somewhat inherently is a bad research sample, since what we are putting under the microscope is things at the highest level. Almost anything can do well against people who dont know the meta or arent bringing top pokemon. Against the top pokemon, nontop things start dropping pretty fast. Even a hard counter team to a specific team set up can fail if used by people who dont know the mechanics well. Best example I have, someone brought a D-deoxys, jirachi, azumaril, medicham, sableye basteodon team to a freestyle cup we had, and lost (this was before charm came). I went up agaisnt him and his team in theory would wreck mine, I had none of those aside from azu, was going venusaur, MS poli, cresselia, altaria, lanturn, and I beat him even though his team should have basically wrecked mine sideways. A team can be made to hard counter something, but in the end it is about the play, not just the set up

Okay, but PvP Pokes and Gamepress alike are both telling me AM2 has nearly an 80% win rate against the meta. It seems to excel in neutral matchups, oppress the hell out of stuff weak to Psychic, at the expense of being SOL against stuff resistant to Psychic.

I mean, it does have a pretty great move pool. Confusion is nice, Dynamic Punch at least threatens T Tar and Steel types (which Lugia can’t really do, Hydro Pump is soooooo slow and is walled hard by a single shield) and unlike Lugia, AM2 has a wide move pool. Your Heatran might seem same tanking a DP to save a shield, until it gets deleted by an unexpected Earthquake. You kill your opponent’s Machamp with Confusion spam, they send out a Giratina expecting a weak Rock Slide, then get stung by a strong Future Sight you farmed the energy off of their Machamp to get.

This thing definitely seems to have at least some potential. Strong win rate, strong move pool, strong (albeit objectively slightly inferior) stats and mind game potential.

It is a good movepool, and while DP deals about 90% ttars HP in ultra at least, something like steelix it only deals about 33%, which while winning a straight 1 v 1 to steelix, if it comes in with extra energy, mewtwo will have a lot more trouble winning that. Its like cresselia, both are tanky psychics that confusion spam

But it can only one 2 of those moves at a time meaning it’s going to have some pretty huge weak spots in its coverage once revealed, and future sight actually deals something along the lines of 38% damage to giratina, so i’d hardly call that a ‘strong’ future sight. EQ might oneshot heatran, but theres another, stronger EQ user, its names swampert and it can take on things like metagross, raikou, groudon, dialga while also deleting heatran. I’ve rarely heard things about machamp for masters after HC swampert came, since it took those steel match ups machamp enjoyed while also beating Ttar. Charm togekiss added another huge obstacle for fighting types, who despite the prominence of dark and steels, the also prominence of the flying types, giratina and old mewtwo didnt leave much space for a fighter to have an easy time. Armored two running EQ and DP means a wall by anything flying and giratina, FS/RS and DP might be good for ttar and fighting types, but you lose to metagross, charmkiss, giratina, shadow ball mewtwo and if a shield exists a BC ttar, EQ and RS might hit metagross for more damage than DP, and try covering some fliers, but also leaves a gap for tyranitar, Swampert, opposing old mewtwo, giratina (who also beats any set of mewtwo armored BTWwhile also being one of the most dominant forces in the league).

thats really the only thing is has, since its stats are weak and while it has good moves, they simply dont hurt things much unless its a double weakness. IT can beat a charm kiss with rockslide but thats because it out energies togekiss and even in no shields, it takes 2 slides to get the kill. It one shots (almost, leaves with like less than 5% HP left )Heatran with EQ, but even when hitting super effective, its not impressive, and being unable to oneshot a double weak target like heatran with a move as strong as EQ really shows that. DP still leaves tyrantiar with enough HP to keep on biting, and none of its moves actually threaten giratina. Its a pokemon that does things by mind games, once figured out, it’s history. Is it an option that can win fights, yes, but is it something that theres better versions of? Also yes. Melmetal’s a great rockslider for flying things while also being steel and having higher energy and attack, Metagross is a nonground Eq user that also beats fairy and dragons that also doesnt do well agaisnt giratina iwht HC swampert being simply a better EQ user, psychic is a just weak type offensively in masters (thats why mewtwo runs nonpsychic moves, and lugia goes SA/HP) since poison is nonexistent there and only machamp on rare occasions pops up, generally as a bodyguard to giratina but has received big competition from swampert now (machamp can also live long enough even while taking confusion to use rockslide, which takes armored two down to half HP, and it will need to use its own punch to KO or risk more damage, if it doesnt use a charge moves, machamp takes it down to 79 HP, or 43% of its original HP.

Its good, but like master league gardevoir, it also gets thoroughly thrashed and theres other pokemon that do what it does better.

I would never think to debate that AM2 is a better user of EQ than Swampert. But the thing is, everyone expects Swampert to be running HC + EQ. What, does anyone think it’s packing Sludge Wave?

At least AM2 has a series of charged moves that it could actually conceivably have a reason to run. Heatran would never stay in on Swampert. It might stay in on AM2 if it thinks you can’t really threaten it. Element of surprise is a thing in PvP; shield baiting is a thing, after all.

It was more or less an example of a practical use for AM2 and Future Sight; find a matchup it excels heavily in, farm energy for that strong Future Sight, and then beat on whatever comes in next with it. 38% is significant against Giratina, especially if your opponent just lost a Pokemon and then immediately had another huge core of their team lose 1/3rd of its HP immediately.

I mean, do you beat Metagross even with EQ? I don’t think I need to look this one up: your Confusion spam does absolutely nothing to it. Unlike with T Tar, EQ isn’t hitting Meta for 4x damage and takes a lot longer to charge up. That particular matchup seems hopeless for AM2 anyway.

And I think we can all assume that no one will bring 3 Giratinas to a UL/ML battle, right? No one told you to pit a M2 vs. Giratina/a Dark type. Plus the fact that it’s actually quite hard to make a competitive team where all 3 of your Pokemon can beat AM2 in a 1v1 ASSUMING ALL SHIELD SCENARIOS.

That is, if Cresselia has Moonblast. Otherwise it would need a 2 - 0 shield scenario to win. And even if Cress does have Moonblast, AM2 still wins in situations where it has a shield advantage or both sides still have 2 shields.

Disagree. Both have different matchups (Cress has an easier time with Dragons, while AM2 has some fighting power vs. Steel types), and saying one is the other’s substitute is not correct.

@TheKyogre Never said three Giratina, but the pitting a mewtwo v a dark or ghost can still happen pretty easily, switch in and lock/bait and trap. It still does take a pretty substantial amount of damage even in a favorable match up like machamp. Not every emember of a team will beat an armored two, but a pretty substantial part of the meta still beats it pretty safely If it doesnt have the good set up or ‘safe’ switch in (which again, is pretty rare in masters). ITs better for ultra

With charmkiss existing, oh yeah, i’ve seen a fair few of these, rare but existing. The reason swampert runs those, HC EQ is because its a good set, with one movecombo it drowns a lot of the meta, armored two gets its shear number of matches from every possible combo it can run, not a single set. The charge moves all have a conceivable use, but that still means it will always be lacking a lot of coverage since every set possible is what lets it have those match ups, not one individual pair, which makes once its figured out, it loses its surprise factor, the only thing it really has. Given the low energy rate and mewtwo’s low attack, sieldbaiting on armored two I dont think works unless running rockslide, since confusion’s EPT isnt bad, but its not that high considering some of its other charge moves higher cost while other pokemon in masters tend to pack either faster moves or cheaper charge attacks
Earthquake, expecially in masters, is prized for its power and coverage, thats why quick users of it like swampert, and groudon, formerly garchomp, were so noted for it, confusion gets it a bit too slow and lacking the power to threaten anything but heatran, thus making this move set on A-Two strictly for use as a heatran target coutner, unlike the ground types who use its power to do basically what that move does to the main games, hit everything for tons of strong damage.

But that generally may also mean the machamp did some work to your opponents team. And since machamp can bring Armored down to that Low HP considering the resistance, that leaves it in set up zone for giratina when incoming. 38% is substantial, but like GL vigoroth’s bodyslam’s its not that hindering, since while it deals a good bit, it still takes another usage to get into more threatening territory, Giratina can come out of the fight not needing to use its shadow balls and have a dragonpulse on stand by with a second almost fully charged, or can just go for the throat V mewtwo and get a quick kill or force a shield (this senario ends with giratina at 53 HP but also having 2 charge attacks at the ready, and even a charmkiss wont be able to KO before it uses 2 shadow balls or bitetar takes 2 dragon pulses so getting a pretty huge smack on whatever comes in next, much more than mewtwo’s FS can do to giratina).

Thats kinda my point, walling confusion means most of its threats neutralized, and its attack is so low that without STAB on moves they dont really dent things. Its a basteodon esque wall but in masters basteodon esque walls dont work as well since the massive different in power levels of master league pokemon. A majority of master leagues matches are pretty hopeless for armored two with no x4 or psychic weakness to exploit while also being fairly reliably out energied, or the rare case like togekiss where it out energies the opponent. Tanky steels like dialga and melmetal can take its punches while walling confusion, EQ takes pretty long to charge up still giving heatran time to fight back, shields existing negates what it does to TTar, as well as it needs to be carrying specific moves to counter specific top threats, if it lacks DP ttar eats it for breakfast, EQ heatran incinerates it, and the like. In a vacuum, access to everything it can beat a lot, but when a specific set of 2 moves is observed, most of those matches drop away from the specific mewtwo you are using.

This is actually backed up by PvP Poke. 83% win rate in Master, albeit a win rate I find being fluffed against a ton of Pokemon I would never think to use in the league/look totally unviable. Being knocked down by a ton of top dogs really hurts. But, a good matchup against Togekiss and Lucario is nice. It synergizes oddly with AM2’s Psychic typing, because it can’t exactly bodyguard Giratina due to a weakness to Dialga and Dark types.

Seconding this. Wins against Melmetal and Steelix are things Cress couldn’t dream of.

Really? Give up SE coverage on Dialga and Steels which Swampert destroys for… A mediocre SE move on Togekiss?

Why not just run a Steel type? Dialga, Metagross, Heatran, etc. I see no reason to run Sludge Wave on Swampert. But I guess we’re getting off topic here…

You don’t technically ‘need’ Rock Slide to shieldbait unless your opponent already knows your moveset (in which case, AM2 has probably done a pretty good deal of damage anyway). The threat that you could be running RS, even if you’re not, gives some kind of credence to shieldbaiting, especially if your target is weak to Rock.

It’s a Bastiodon esque wall with no 4x weaknesses and a much better movepool, along with ways to heavily damage stuff that’s supposed to counter it, which Bast can’t do against Fighting and Ground. The lingering threat of it running DP will at least deter T-Tar from just tanking a charged move the first time AM2 has one ready. Same idea with Heatran and EQ. It may not be on paper, but element of surprise, while taking a lot of skill and risk, is a very tangibly sound argument made in favor of AM2’s strong overall viability in the league.

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