Assassin x0.9 Modifier

At what point would you need to work an Assassin’s natural modifier (or Caster for that matter) before the modifier is just not an issue. Including Class Advantages and buffs and passives. For the most part I agree with the fact that it hurts the overall damage output, but some servants just seem to have so many personal buffs in their kit that (no math) it sounds like they would overcome the class disadvantage.

Obviously there are stronger servants out there (Jalter, ChuZerker) but anytime an Assassin or Caster DPS gets a mention all I see is “While would be good, is (insert class), so unfortunately is bad Servant.” I might be a touch biased as Assassins seem to serve my greatest needs in most circumstances, but I wanted to ask the community what it takes to overcome the stigma that seems to surround the Classes and what inside their own kit (as supports are interchangeable) would make them break the barrier.

I mean the modifier is always there. irregardless of how you do the math, it will always cut everything by a tenth. so basically, if you were to duplicate everything about 2 servant other than their class, the class with the higher class damage modifier will always come out on top. and since people like their big numbers damage, the DPS servants with better class modifiers tend to be prioritized the majority of the time (alongside supports to help with that big numbers damage, hence why Merlin is so popular)

only exception to this would be damage+, as those are flat numbers unaffected by any modifiers

also

now I’m just thinking of a Chuuni Cu, even though Jalter is the Chuuni one

I understand the class modifier is there, but at what point can we look at the kit of a character overcoming the modifier. I’m not gonna call Merlin or Waver, as it would be better to use those on “more appropriate” Servants. Independent of what team supports or CEs you equip (as again, they are interchangeable with any servant, good or bad), it seems that the classes gets an overall bad rap simply by existing. So what possible combinations would remedy that to go beyond the class issue.

What I see are things like Cleo (40% ATK, 30% buster, and Damage Plus), Shuten (20% Def down, 20% Atk Up, 30% NP up, and Damage Plus) and Gramps (20% Atk up and 50% Buster) among others having a phrasing that sounds to me like they’re not very good. So what point has to happen for a servant to surpass the class modifier? What servants currently do so, and what kind of kit would be necessary if one were to look for one to?

I mean unless they serve some other utility or give something outside of raw damage (say faster NP spam), they’re probably not gonna be winning much in terms of majority preference for DPS units. though realistically speaking, all one would need to do is be able to clear with that unit. even if one could do it better with another one. people just tend to prefer the heavier hitters since it’s overall safer, especially when damage numbers are never exact. so if one can, it’d just be more reliable to overkill into oblivion to guarantee that kill vs maybe leaving a bit of HP behind, because the game decided to make the damage numbers a bit lower this time

plus there’s also the matter of the game being very farm-heavy, so of course most people would prefer to minimize their time spent per battle via maximizing their damage output

There is no “magic threshold” after which a servant is suddenly the best, it depends on the situation at hand, what other options you have available, and other factors.

For example, if it’s about just nuking the shit out of a Rider boss in a quest that you aim to finish in 3 turns, e.g. an NP per wave, Lu Bu will always beat every Assassin save NP5 gramps or some shit among those lines, or NP2 Jack against a female. But unless you’re 3turning and have the tools to NP right away, Lu Bu is greatly inferior to any 3* or above Assassin because he is basically incapable of charging his NP himself and dies to a paper plane thrown his way.
So it really just depends on what you’re going to do. Gramps, Jack and Cleo are very powerful servants despite class modifiers. I’ve never seen anyone call them bad just because they’re Assassins, 10% less damage is not gonna make or break a servant, it’s when it gets piled up with a bunch of other issues that it becomes really noticeable. For example, Shinjuku Assassin whose kit is a weak mess and being an Assassin makes it worse, but he wouldn’t fare much better in a different class.

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This. A lot of the game is damage optimisation and it’s just noted that servants with those classes won’t do as much raw damage as other options such as Cu (Alter). Carmilla is still my current Rider killer, but it’s important to note that her 11K atk won’t do the same amount of damage as a saber with 11k attack against a lancer.

It’s more of a technical detail than a criticism, but it becomes very apparent when your servant has low attack even for that class.

Caster Nero is a great example of a servant whose kit mostly subverts her class’s innate modifier.

But yeah…that modifier will always be there. That’s why Melt is so highly praised—she might only deal pseudo class advantage like a berserker, but she’s not as fragile. She also lacks that modifier…there’s a reason she consistently ranks high on those strongest NP charts versus Riders and Assassins.

I typically use class-advantaged teams as much as possible, not only for the 2x damage output, but more importantly for the 1/2 damage taken. So when my main opponents are Riders, I don’t sweat the 0.9 modifier. While it’s true that a Berserker can out damage an assassin, perhaps, their relative fragility means I have to baby sit them more. And against Rider enemies, your usual baby sitters, your casters, may well get focused and taken out, and then it’s a race to the end…

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I mean just look at examples: Jack, Gramps and Cleo all are extremely solid characters despite their classes innate weaknesses. Jack and to a lesser extend Cleo can NP spam like crazy with minimal support. Gramps crushes riders with Gramps backing him up and can solo a ton of content kinda like Cu. Jack also offers a ton of team support while being so good against Riders.

I’ll also note that Summer Scathach is a premier rider-wave clearer surpassing AoE zerks in that role. In the Christmas event she was one of the best ways to 3-4 turn the best node.

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I guess my phrasing is just bad and not sure how else to put it. It’s more of a question/discussion of what would the character need to stop having such a stigma, within their personal kit, that would let them rise above. Like would an Assassin need a Active Buster or Attack boost of 50% in its kit to deal matching neutral damage with an Archer?

@Zhiroc and @ElliotS state perfect reasons on what it takes to go beyond (Plus Ultra!) the class containers despite the inherent weakness and use an Assassin or Caster instead of “BASAKA WA DARE NI MO MAKENAI SEKAI DE ICHIBAN TSUYOI DAKARA!”

Not looking for “Optimal”, Looking for breaking the mold and what you think it would take inherently to turn x0.9 to x1.0+

(Passives or Actives, no CEs or Supports [yes I know it would be better on others, that’s not the point, we’re turning a Caster/Assassin by itself to match a baseline Saber/Rider etc. not Divine spirit into God above All, we have enough of those])

I guess my phrasing is just bad and not sure how else to put it. It’s more of a question/discussion of what would the character need to stop having such a stigma, within their personal kit, that would let them rise above.

Simple. Either have a useful battery skill or a broad enough niche that they’re useful even during farming situations.

Passives or Actives, no CEs or Supports

Is a silly restriction to impose. Battery skills don’t directly improve skills like, say, Mana Burst would, but you can’t just ignore that good battery skills allow a Servant to equip stronger CEs than one of their peers and still NP in the same amount of time as if their peer was using a Kaleidoscope. This is part of the reason why Arash and Spartacus are so useful for farming, whereas Lu Bu really isn’t.

The only assassin to my knowledge that can can overcome this stigma is Jekyll because you can turn him into a berserker with his NP :slight_smile:

I just don’t overthink it. The modifier is what it is, and while you can use CEs or supports to overcome it, you never eliminate the fact that it’s there.

But I wouldn’t sweat it all that much. Think of it this way–if you’re using a servant with a 9000 base ATK that you haven’t ATK-Fou’ed, then you’ve imposed your own 10% ATK penalty. Of course in this case that’s fixable if you go and get the Fous, but it doesn’t stop me from liking or using the servant. Grailing a servant 10 levels adds about 1000 ATK, so if you don’t, you’ve again limited their ultimate ATK.

Yeah, there will be times when that extra 10% makes all the difference, but oh well…

I consider Assassin the worst class based on a combination of multiple weaknesses. They aren’t dealbreakers by themselves, but together, contribute to the stigma.

From a DPS point of view:

  • 0.9x attack modifier: Already discussed heavily in this thread.
  • Quick Focused Decks: We are in the pre-Skadi era, so Quick has a bad reputation. With the exception of First Hassan, all Assassins have at least two Quicks, and many have three. The 0.8x Quick damage modifier combined with the 0.9x Assassin class modifier is brutal.
  • Weak Passives for DPS: With a quick focused deck, it would be great if Assassins had a Riding passive to boost Quick card effectiveness. MHX and Yan Qing are the only Assassins with Quick boosting passives. Compare this with Casters, many of whom have Territory Creation to boost their Arts, thus helping to offset the 0.9x class modifier.

The points below are less related to DPS, but contribute to the stigma of Assassins being a poor class.

  • Active Star Generation: The niche of the Assassin class is creating stars, shown by their Presence Concealment passive. The problem is active star generation is obsolete in the face of Fragments of 2030 + Merlin NP. Why spend cards to create stars when you can reach a critical mass of them passively? The Assassin identity would have been much better had DW not created such powerful mechanisms for passive stargen.
  • Rider / Caster / Assassin Triangle: Most people rely on Casters for support. Unfortunately, Rider nodes can quickly demolish your Caster supports, so there’s additional pressure on your Assassins to deal damage quickly to finish off Rider enemies. Since Assassins struggle to deal damage, it just feels worse when they can’t even keep their supports alive.

Even with all these disadvantages, we still have great Assassins. I consider Jack to be one example that overcomes the stigma. However, I think there are too many weak Assassin servants as a whole to consider the class as good.

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ok, i am actually quite in this discussion.
I have Sanzang (best monk) and Cleo (ceasar Waifu).
I can see what you mean.
And since i also have one of the most common “why should i use any one else if i have him?”, the mad king himself, Cu Alter, i also feel this limitation.
First off, let me say this. The real problem of those class, is not the their 0.9, but their class in itself.
why, well simply look at their kit, and then take a look at a top dps in another class.
Lets take, for exemple Quezalcoat.
She have 12001 attack, sanzang have 11658, cleo have 11088, gramps have 11848. this alredy tell us something important.
But is not all.
Most of the assassin and caster dps dont have a good set of skill for thet role.
I mean, sanzang have 1 target focus? 1 battery with np damage up (20 %, not even thet much) and a team np gain up? yeah. look at quetz, Carisma, Buster up, crit up and star gather.
And none of them have a dps kit.
As you all know, the best kit for dps in the current game (merlin meta and most of the current support) is AAQBB. none of them have it. The Buster gorilla kit of gramps hardly works in team, becouse his np gain and his star gen lose much of their value if you can use them at best evry 3 turnl

To be fair, Cleopatra is really close to be thet good. She have a very good dps skill set. A close to good Deck. But she is not constant. I tell you from expirience, thet you will miss the buff, and you may not get the right chain (NP BB with crit, and the next turn AQQ for complete refill of the np bar. deam she is cool, 100 % np bar for AQQ with no crit)

Make me an assassin, or caster, with a standard deck (AAQBB, Bnp) with a nice skill set (like self modification Ex, protection of faith a++, Mind Eye (false)A), and i can assure you he will be considered a very good dps.

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