Caineghis or Bike for an AR supertank?

Jk, not the cav. Anyone have experience with both?

In T18 now after 3.5 months of playing. Probably could have done it faster, but being at -3 fort disadvantages got unfun real fast so just coasted and maintained tier for some time. Probably will crap out at T19 unless I make some adjustments.

Want to invest in a supertank for when I am lazy. Have Cain and Bike at +1 with functional skills, but at the point where I kind of want to pick one or the other to merge up and bench the other.

who to pick frens

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B!Ike for sure

I used to use Cain and he’s very meh, especially when you get into high tiers

Ike is consistently stupidly good

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Things that concern me about Bike relative to Cain:

Doesn’t scale nearly as well with stat boosts from support due to % dmg reduction. The flipside is that he is tends to be better with no stat support. Scales well with blessings alone.

Not colorless, but how much reds are a threat later remains to be seen.

Poorer visible res, but Cain’s isn’t high enough that it would be too hard to soak a chill.

Bike does have:

access to null c, where Cain would get annihilated. I would probably put my thinking cap on and use another team in this case if I was using Cain.

No armor weakness, which is huge, but I pretty much double down on running svallinn on Cain every time I even think about switching it out so meh.

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I didn’t realise you were asking about Caineghis and not the sword cavalry unit.

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I have experience with using both in AR (Ike for Light, Caineghis for Astra)
Both are pretty consistent. They both have their bad matchups though.
Brave Ike’s main problems are AoEs & Brave Roy/Eliwood. Those seem kinda obvious, but they really hamper Brave Ike’s tanking ability.
Asides from that, a defense with enough strong reds could be a problem.
Brave Ike does easily tank most defenses that don’t counter him though.
Caineghis has the advantage of being colorless, but he has other weaknesses. Maybe my +1 Caineghis doesn’t have the best build, but he still has trouble tanking defenses with too much offensive power. Running Svalinn does get rid of the armor weakness, but if you ever find a Brave Eliwood or Picnic Flora, you’ll be in trouble.

In general I’d recommend Brave Ike, and just patch his weaknesses with other teams/other units, but Caineghis is also a strong choice. :feh_birbpeek:

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Who the hell is that? :thinking:

Edit: It took me a good 20 seconds to even remember there was a one-syllable Cain in FEH.

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WoM fodder
I just burned through 3 of them :upside_down_face:

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Who do you typically run with each one?

So far, Cain with Svallinn has been better more often than not for me than Ike.

Cain I usually use with SF/QR/noontime He is incredibly difficult to bring down…but has major trouble sweeping certain teams with healing and firesweep weapons, and a good amount can time him out since his damage without a dmg special is pretty meh. Brave Ike has had this issue too, but not as much.

When Cain has worked though, he’s generally coasted. I usually use him with Mordecai and Male Corrin.

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Currently, my main support unit for Brave Ike is Brave Lucina. Classic, but she works wonders with Brave Ike via the Breath effect.
Caineghis has Kaden as a support. If you use Naga, she can run Tactics & be close to both of them without untransforming them (more important for Caineghis)
Then Kaden runs his native Link to get full buffs on both him & Caineghis.
This is weak to Panic though, which is another problem for Caineghis if you buff him this way. Typically Brave Ike is a bit less reliant on visible buffs because most of his tanking ability comes from % reduction & Aether spam. :thinking:

Special Fighter Noontime is a really good set for Caineghis. I don’t use it because I’m holding onto my Special Fighter for now, but it might work better than my current set of Vengeful Fighter & Sol for AR. Vengeful Fighter does help a lot in PvE, but it may not be as useful here.

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I foddered him up and down without even learning his name first. :pensive:

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Hmm I’m not surprised Cain’s tankiness can get shaky without noontime. Using vengeful seemed better than SF/QR/Noontime…but having to get doubled before getting the heal off didn’t work too well for me unless everything else went as planned. Cain’s transformation restrictions in practice have been more problematic than I imagined they would be. Kaden and Naga would help though (I’ve only been using him in light).

Have you considered using L! Eliwood or even Lucina with Cain?

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I’ve used both and gotten destroyed using Cain, and get numerous wins with Brave Ike. Brave Ike is able to take some damage from reds and hasn’t been a problem. I think it depends on play style though. With Cain, I had lots of trouble getting him out of the way of his counters after triggering the defense and became more a liability. With Ike, he has lots of sustain for himself, plus is supported by Brave Lucina - who helps fighting non-mage reds.

But yeah, you just need to watch out for Hardy Bearing and AoE specials as those are hard counters to BIke. (Hardy Bearing removes the second enemy attack up front, so less damage reduction and more taken - especially from magical reds). This has been my experience in Astra having used both. I have different team comps with Ike & Lucina that include a refresher, tactics buffer, panic user, etc. Getting Altina also helps fight some reds as well if really needed.

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I clicked on this thread to see how the hell you use Cain as an AR supertank and now I’m disappointed :feh_lynstare:

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I vote B!Ike!

Be sure to use him on light season, he needs the res to deal with ophelia, and you are much less likely to encounter Altina on defense.

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, maxed out with eir and peony support, enjoy!

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A def/res/spd ratio Bike and Imposter Cain can only dream of.

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I really wanted to see a supertank Cain too, now I’m just disappointed by this entire thread (except for the actual Cain posted).

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B!Ike, B!Ike, B!Ike.

Granted, I haven’t used Cain. But on paper, Cain might have problem balancing survival and offensive power in three major ways, when compared to B!Ike.

  1. B!Ike can run Aether and proc consistently with B!Lucina support, either by being doubled or him doubling the enemy (many run QR seal on him). And due to B!Ike’s Urvine refine effect, he often heals quite a bit by procing Aether if he gets doubled first. In comparison, Cain might not be able to run Aether effectively. He’s slow, so he’ll definitely get the follow-up hit from the enemy. Even if he survives, his retaliation with Aether charged may not heal him much to sustain more battles. But if you prioritize Cain’s survival by using Noontime on him, he lacks sufficient firepower to take down the enemy and wastes turns. So, even though B!Lucina can support Cain, Cain’s choice for special is a bit difficult.

  2. B!Ike can run NCD to take care of firesweep users and staffers, which Cain cannot. Even in high tier AR, you could still see Veronica and firesweep weapon users. So, Cain could struggle there, too.

  3. I know that Cain has a lot of def/res on paper. But he is an armor unit that is susceptible to armor effective weapons, which is popular in AR. In the future, there’ll be more weapon effective against beasts. So he is potentially taking double effective against damages, which would simply annihilate him. Now, since effective against beast isn’t popular yet, you may patch his armor weakness with the A-skill. However, that occupies his precious a-slot. B!Ike on the other hand, looks less glamorous since his tank stats aren’t impressive. However, 40% damage reduction and 80% damage reduction from 2nd consecutive hit is just overpowered. While B!Ike can fall to strong Hardy Bearing units that can also double him, like Flora, he can remedy this by pushing his spd to insane level so that the enemy cannot double him naturally (which means Hardy Bearing is useless) and running Null Follow-up (which prevents guarantee follow-up effect by the enemy and guarantee B!Ike’s own follow-up on the enemy). For example, my B!Ike is at 60 spd with one Peony. I am not using Null Follow-up yet since there’re not that many strong defensive teams even in high tier AR, and I prefer the versatility of NCD.

So, overall, B!Ike is much better super tank unit, at least for the light season. Heck, I also use a +10 B!Ike in the Astra seaon quite effectively and with the hope that one day they’ll release an Astra mythic that buffs res.

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Math’ed this one out.
*Assume +10 +res Cain, +10 +atk bike, 2 eirs, light season.
*Assume they get doubled by everyone and do not one shot. This advantages Bike artificially on both counts (Cain is very capable of one-shotting many glassy ranged threats), but some assumptions are better left unsimplified. Am definitely not unnerdy enough not to add a nth axis, but am lazy boi. This is supposed to make it better to be lazier in AR, after all.
*assume Brave Lucina and Brave Ike are not a duo unit.
*x axis is opponents atk stat, y axis is dmg taken over one combat (two hits), purple is cain, blue is bike.

case 1: enemy hits defense
lightdef
Bike takes much less damage than Cain for enemies who hit defense that have atk >~60, taking only half as much for enemies in the 65-75 atk range.

case 2: enemy hits reslightres
We see that around 65 atk, Bike starts to take less damage than Cain, although it is pretty close in the relevant 65-75 atk range.

The reality changes a ton when you add support in form of buffs, however. These benefit Cain much more than they do Ike at the same numbers.

Assuming +13 buffs from allies (combined in combat and visible), enemy hitting def:

lightdef2

Ike’s advantage still exists in the important 65-75 range, but is much smaller.

For hitting res: lightres
Cain actually has the edge against units hitting res for much of the relevant range, but very slightly.

The point where Cain truly has the edge is when you can stack 20+ def/res from support on each, 13-18 being close. a minority of threats won’t double either Cain or Ike, although the vast majority will. More importantly, spd scales much better on Cain. As Cain gets faster and prevents more natural doubles, Cain is benefited much more than Ike. Stacking 50+ spd on Cain and he is taking far less damage than Ike in every situation except firesweep.

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Spd superboon and +4 on EP beg to differ

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