Can we talk AR Defensive Movement? Ie Unit Placement

So here is a pic of a new defense am toying with, and I am trying to understand the movement process.

All I really know is assisters (Veronica restore+ In this case) hits the furthest on the right, and that’s Bramimond. She can then get danced and so on, but my question is this: what other tricks am I missing as far as UNIT PLACEMENT IN THIS TYPE OF LINEUP?

I’m also trying to figure out why it doesn’t always work; ie Yune has Harsh command, but she doesn’t hit S Byleth or anyone else, in fact most the time she moves last.

Any insight here or additional tricks are appreciated. I know most is random, but I’m trying to figure out what we can predict, like assists on the far right unit.

What else?

1 Like

I’m pretty sure @Sothis is good at Ai stuff

3 Likes

I’m flattered, I know some stuff but I’m not a specialist xD I’ll take a look at it later. OP should post a screenshot of their defense and everyone’s placement though

3 Likes

restore traps are risky compared to rally traps as far as the level of manipulation you can guarantee over your units, although they might seem better at first. there are basically two situations that change how restore traps work:

case 1: there are no enemies in the threat range of any of your defense units
*at the beginning of a match where no enemies are in range of anyone, a unit with restore/restore+ will only use it at all if its allies that it can move to are debuffed and/or missing hp. this corresponds to the post combat condition in the Book of Mia.
*usually you’ll have multiple units debuffed or hurt adjacent to each other - AI prioritizes units that can be healed, i.e. are missing hp. usually at the time of a restore trap, your units will be at full hp, so it will then choose targets based on debuffs, with the total stat debuffs on a target, the higher priority it is. If the valid restore targets have the same # of stats debuffed though, it will then go by slot order with the rightmost first. I’m guessing that you assumed it was rightmost first always because each unit on your team who veronica could reach when you tested it had the same amount of debuffs on them.
*if you want veronica to restore bram, the setup is correct - she’ll move in front of him, closer to enemies, increasing the chance she’ll have a unit to snipe. but still, if she can’t one-round a unit who is in her new attack range, she will not attack IF she has another restore target - she will simply go and restore the second highest priority unit in her new range. If you want her to attack no matter what, you have to set things up so she doesn’t have a valid path to any other units (this is not easy at all, and rarely worth it). Since the opponent has control over what units they put and where, your opponent has a lot of say in what happens next.
*harsh command/+ is used by the AI in the same way as it uses rallies with the one exception being that the unit you are trying to use harsh command on MUST have penalties/status penalties on them in addition to other rally criterion. This means that if the unit(s) you want yune to harsh command do NOT have an enemy in their attack range, Yune will not use it until the game state changes to a state where the rally criteria apply for yune + her ally who can attack is debuffed.
*the AI in this case is actually 100% predictable every move…up to the point that slot order doesn’t come into play. If you’re looking to hide info from your opponent, that is the only way that you are guaranteed to be able to.

case 2 : there is at least 1 unit in range of at least 1 of your defense units at the start of your first turn:
*in this case, note that any rally traps you have can also go off. Also, restore works like a rally in this case with the added criteria of their target needing to be debuffed or hurt. the tiebreaker between who rallies first and who restores first is their distance from the closest enemy to them - another thing that depends entirely on where your opponent puts his units, not how your trap(s) are set up.

5 Likes

Can you show the skills and ivs of all your units?

@Erkhul You explained it very well :+1: I don’t really have anything to add to that. Restore traps are rather unreliable since the healer may prioritize restoring allies when they’re unable to kill a target. For example: Bramimond soaks a chill atk and Veronica moves in, however she doesn’t have a target she can kill and proceeds to restore another teammate, which might hurt your formation depending on where Veronica goes next. Harsh Command+ can work pretty much the same as a regular Rally if you have a frontliner who can easily soak most chills (like a Fallen Ike with Fortress Def/Res) Regular Rally traps are the most reliable overall… HOWEVER this is light season we’re talking about, we have to take the Mila factor into consideration. All of these assist traps will likely be disabled by Mila’s C skill, unless the unit in question has over 55 def. It might be a good idea to take other kind of traps into consideration, at least have some kind of back-up plan, for example ground orders, guidance and lunge traps. A combination of these can be pretty good!

1 Like

the AI is never random

as for Yune the following criteria is used to see if she uses harsh command

  • Has no combat resulting in a win
  • Has no combat in which unit does at least 5 damage (does not include Specials or brave effect)
  • If debuffer, must not be able to reduce an enemy’s def or res by at least 2 points
  • If afflictor, has no combat resulting in a draw
  • Has at least one ally who has its action and has the “threatens enemy” status

https://vervefeh.github.io/FEH-AI/textguide.html
covers most if not all decision the AI does, chart and glossary section is also good to read.

this is incorrect, i just tested it. it prioritizes slot order over total debuffs. as to how HP effects prioritize order i’m less experienced in but running restore instead of restore+ does minimize that offset

3 Likes

You’re right, I forgot about that, the total stat debuffs reversed applies to harsh command/+, not restore/+. Restore/+ will choose between possible restore target allies that are not debuffed and can be healed, followed by not debuffed and highest bst, and then if they are debuffed, slot order.

2 Likes

Thanks guys! Give me a bit, I promise I’ll respond. Just finished a workout and got a bit to look over here. Restore traps are great for the first few tiers (but even as low tier players gain experience, they are more ready for it these days). I do like the idea of Veronica getting into the opponents head even if she heals allies and doesn’t attack, but of course I need the rest of the team to be strong.

Like Byleth with windsweep, Bramimond with hardy, and so on. I’ll try and send a list later but like I said, things are changing. All I know is my one dancer defense for dark season isn’t working well.

More to follow…

I have run a restore trap for the last 2.5 months now and it is only when i reach tier 26 that I see people do any kind of attempt at playing around it, but even then a lot of people do it in a bad way. even in the higher ranks people do not know how they work so it is still a very potent strategy

1 Like

a restore trap without a rally trap and/or flyer skills is “risky” insofar as it can possibly give the enemy an easy to snipe unit, but one unit getting sniped isn’t the end of the world for a defense, and you can always position your units so that the chances of your healer moving toward the enemy and making itself vulnerable , etc is minimalized via creative uses of buildings or blocking paths off.

a restore trap + rally trap + ground orders/aerobatics trap to extend threat range works great at any tier, especially if you have ranged units in your frontline. i use a rally trap + harsh command tap + GO/aero trap in my astra defense, which is basically the same thing.

once you get a good idea of how the tiebreak priorities work for different assists, you can do things like harsh command trap a unit in a row 1 into row 3 followed by a ground orders to move a row 2 unit into row 4 followed by a dance with conditions to disrupt it being quite hard to fulfill.

2 Likes

I wish I could get this on video. Lots of good information here, and I am still reading, so let me start with the Restore+.

Right now Veronica hits Bramimond (assuming conditions are met; panic tower, Temari, …I was going to say atk but since he gives everyone +3 Atk his is no longer the highest. Yune beats his res, so no chills would work on him, which isn’t a good starting point for me).

Ishtar dances Veronica.

Veronica goes back left of Byleth to restore her next IF there is no one to kill.

As for orders, I’m still not as experienced or thorough, but Ishtar has innate Air (affects Byleth, Yune and Reyson). Byleth has ground (only affects Bramimond). Side note: Right now Bramimond and Yune both have regular Harsh Command. Veronica of course Restore+.

I have seen a condition where Byleth moves, gets danced, and air orders gets her to attack one of the in range units.

And @Sothis you’re absolutely right, Mila is driving the need for me to redo EVERYTHING on my current team (one dancer). My previously undefeated light for several seasons took -117 last time and is at -78 (plus what tomorrow brings) this time. Hence why I need something. Not to mention with L Leif on my team, it’s time to have a team that I dont have to change with the seasons, so gonna try and bench him, L Azura, and so on until I get this figured out.

1 Like

Yes, this is exactly what I’m looking for! It’s a headache trying to figure this all out and make it work, which I’m willing to do but I’ve got to understand it beyond the “right slot” before I can make it work.

Like I’d even switched Yune and Reyson slot order but left them in the same position on the map, and Reyson still moved before everyone else (excluding Bramimond and Veronica of course), and Yune went last. Still no idea why it went down that way, it was a waste of a dance.

B. Create Movement Order List using these tiebreaks:

  1. Have assist: N > Y
  2. Attack type: Melee > Ranged > Weaponless
  3. Distance to closest enemy: lowest #
  4. Slot order: lowest #

Since reyson is melee he will move before anyone else how has an assist
bram and veronica move first since they have assists they can use.
so to have reyson move later you ether have to assist less units or have the assists on your other units be used
swaping to a ranged dancer or having melee units can also work

2 Likes

Oh man that makes sense! I just saw that in the guide too but it didn’t sink in. Thanks!

Now need to figure out if I can manipulate that somehow or am better off with another Ranged dancer

also, easy way to make one dancer dance a target before another dancer does - take the wep off the dancer you want to have priority. works well with someone like L azura, less well with someone like reyson.

1 Like

On a bit of a side note, does your Soiree Ishtar have Aerobatics?

1 Like

Haven’t put aerobatics on her yet, but that’s not a bad idea. I’ve been toying with QP or SS2 seal simply because Bike. Desperation for now but highly considering WoM if I go live with this. Yeah the more I think about it, I think you are on to something. Probably Ishtar more than Byleth, but either are really good considerations atm. Thanks for asking!

@Erkhul true about the weapon. Ironically I have a -Atk+Spd Leanne on my dark team (the ‘only’ dancer I keep referring to), but with Mila it hasn’t mattered at all. She keeps suiciding herself into enemy units, and the sad part is more than once she took the foe down to 3-4hp, meaning a regular Atk (no minus) would’ve killed them.

I think what I need to do is show you guys the dark team I am working with and take inputs from there. OG Eliwood is a beast, BUT his position is NOT working. He moves forward enough to get within enemy range (but not attack) and is constantly picked off the following round. To be continued here.

Was just about to say that they are both good contenders. Basically, the far right spot with the aether pot can be used to lure Yune and Brave Veronica with like Nagi. So, if you can get one of your red mages to also access that spot, they can put an end to Nagi or even F! Lyon.

1 Like

with mila now, soiree ishtar is a better unit to have on defense than she used to be, but unfortunately her base kit is not very good. for ard purposes, SI + GO + SB seal is far better than her base kit, she needs all the defense she can get. quadding is just icing for slow units that bait her imo

1 Like