Comparing Vigna to Bagpipe, as objective as possible

I think some people may have done the calculations, so I’ll be doing this just as a thought experiment.

Pre-calculation Thoughts

Bagpipe was designed to be a multi-hit DPS, similar to Exusiai. Vigna, on the other hand, was designed to be a burst damage DPS. I figured Bagpipe should easily delete many units better than Vigna provided it's below some enemy DEF threshold.

Assumptions made for the calculations:

  • I will assume that Bagpipe have 100% or more trust without potential, and Vigna will have 100% or more trust with maxed out potential. The reason for doing so is the rate of getting Bagpipe compared to Vigna, making Vigna generally much more accessible compared to Bagpipe.
  • Both units are at Elite 2 with 35 levels. This effectively makes Bagpipe’s ATK sits at 613 ATK and Vigna’s ATK at 593 (both already included trust and potential bonuses).
  • Both units have skill rank 7, without any mastery levels on all of their skills.
  • Calculations will state raw ATK power (without enemy DEF reduction, or enemy DEF is assumed to be 0) unless stated otherwise on the text.

Average burst DPS only refers to the DPS when skill is active, not considering overall DPS when the skill is on cooldown.

Neutral state (without skills):

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a is Vigna’s average neutral DPS, while b is Bagpipe’s average neutral DPS. Immediately below b is Vigna’s raw crit ATK and under it is Bagpipe’s raw crit ATK.

Essentially, when considering DPS with their crit talents, Bagpipe performs just the same to Vigna when it comes to single target DPS.
Vigna’s crit will proc less often than Bagpipe, but boasts higher crit ATK, making her crit really good for bypassing higher DEF enemies.
Bagpipe, however, can deal the same amount of ATK to another enemy and procs more often which makes it particularly useful in clearing more crowded waves.

Vigna's DPS from all skills:

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Above is the calculations for Vigna’s skill 1 average burst DPS, in order from top to bottom are Vigna’s average DPS, raw ATK power without crit, and with crit.

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Above is the calculations for Vigna’s skill 2 average burst DPS, same order following Vigna S1 template.

Analysis between Vigna's skills:

Generally, since both skills have the same duration (20 seconds) and S2 have lower SP requirement compared to S1 (28 init 5 vs 37 init 5), as well as boasting higher average DPS, you would never want your Vigna’s skill to be set to S1. S2 raises Vigna’s damage to an insane amount per hit and 2 consequent hits from crits usually deletes most enemies on the lower DEF spectrum.

Bagpipe's DPS from all skills:

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h is Bagpipe’s skill 1 average burst DPS, i is the new attack interval after ASPD increase, below i is the raw ATK power w/o talent, and under it is with talent.

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j is Bagpipe’s skill 2 average DPS (with the multiple hits), under j is her raw ATK per hit, and below it is her raw ATK per hit with talent.

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h is Bagpipe’s skill 3 average burst DPS (with the multiple hits), following the same format as Bagpipe’s skill 2.

Analysis between Bagpipe's skills:

S1 offers good uptime (almost 50% assuming you activate it all the time) for a manual-trigger buff and the bonus are consistent for the duration, however the ATK buff per hit is not as high as the other skills. (She does hit faster thus the burst DPS are higher than S2).

S2 is designed to perform in a consistent and predictable manner, set it and forget it type. This is a very safe skill to use in general when you know there aren’t any enemies that needs high burst damage on the stage. Offers the second-highest ATK per hit.
S3 deals a whopping 3 hit combo with high damage per hit. This can instantly melt enemies on the lower DEF spectrum, combined with the additional block and DEF buff which synergize with her crit talent very well. However, 40 SP with 20 second duration makes it crucial to time the skill properly. Offers the highest ATK per hit.

General Average DPS Comparison

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Legends:
h is Bagpipe’s S1 average DPS, considering initial SP, SP requirement, and duration.
j is Bagpipe’s S2 average DPS.
k is Bagpipe’s S3 average DPS, considering init SP, SP req, and duration.
b is Vigna’s S2 average DPS, considering init SP, SP req, and duration.
All of the above assumed the enemy has 0 DEF, and assumes the skill is used every time it is available for easier calculation. Generally average DPS drops after first skill usage.

Analysis:

Vigna's S2 makes a better single-target DPS compared to Bagpipe's S1 and S2, but lacks the crowd-control Bagpipe provides due to Bagpipe's talent that occasionally allows her to deal damage to another target. While Bagpipe's S3 deals much more DPS compared to Vigna's S2, Bagpipe needs more time to recharge her skill while Vigna's can be used faster about 7 seconds or so, even after considering the longer skill duration on Vigna.

Bagpipe's S3 and Vigna's S2 Interactions on Varying Enemy DEF


Legends:
line a is Vigna’s S2 damage per hit without talent.
line b is Vigna’s S2 damage per hit when talent activates.
line c is Bagpipe’s S3 damage per hit without talent.
line d is Bagpipe’s S3 damage per hit when talent activates. (Also hits one other enemy in range)

The x coordinate shows the value of enemies’ DEF, while the y coordinate in the line tells us how much damage per hit they will be dealing to said enemy with that amount of DEF.

Analysis:

We can see that without crit, Vigna's damage per hit is much lower than Bagpipe's when the enemy's DEF are below 1000. Vigna w/o crit gains an edge against Bagpipe w/o crit when the enemy's DEF is between 1006 to 1308 DEF. When critical is considered, Vigna does show that she deals higher damage than Bagpipe w/ crit when the enemy DEF ranges from 715 to 2886.

Bagpipe, based on the graph, shows that she really does deal high damage when the enemy DEF is on the low spectrum. Even without crit, at 0 enemy DEF, the damage is slightly more than two times of Vigna’s (even Vigna’s damage with activated talent is beaten by her w/o talent proc, but Vigna w/ crit will deal more damage starting at 191 enemy DEF until 3000-ish).
Bagpipe does have higher minimum damage owing to the fact that she actually deals 3 hits with S3, making her effective minimum damage to be thrice the original amount (3 times of 5% ATK). Another thing to consider is the fact that Bagpipe hits another target when talent procs, potentially dealing twice the damage overall.

Author's Conclusion and Opinion

While Bagpipe does deal much more damage in practice (due to many AK enemies' DEF generally lies between 0 to 1000 DEF), it remains a fact that Vigna is an operator with lower rarity, thus developing and deploying her will be cheaper compared to Bagpipe. Vigna's damage have the potential to deal larger amount of damage than Bagpipe and have better matchup against i.e. Defense Crushers, but Bagpipe will be a better general pick for the DP-on-kill role. As a disclaimer, this does not mean Vigna is worse nor better than Bagpipe. They're both strong for what they are and both are solid picks for the role they fill.

This was a long read, but I hope you find this post useful and I'll be glad if you find the content entertaining as much as I do. Feel free if there are any questions, comments, and/or critics.

- End of Report, Thanks for Reading -

9 Likes

Good read, Vigna is certainly a good operator she is a sarkaz after all.
Even with out max levels and skills Bagpipe is still a beast she is used like a duelist guard with s3 after all and still that’s not what makes her stupidly powerful, just imagine if we get a 6 star flagbearer.

Just a tip, Pot5 Bagpipe for talent upgrade is achievable with only 2 dupes. 4 royal vanguard tokens are available at the red voucher shop and another 4 at CC#1 Pyrite shop.

3 Likes

Man, this certainly was a good read. Didn’t expect Vigna to perform almost on par with Bagpipe against higher Def enemies considering her rarity and skillset. I honestly half expected Reed to be closer to Bagpipe for high dps vanguard ngl.

3 Likes

That’s a pretty great breakdown of their respective performances. :grin::+1:

Also, this…

I’ve been seeing everywhere how Bagpipe is gamechanging and such, so this is actually great to hear. Then again, the only two Vanguards I ever use for harder fights are Myrtle and Siege so… it’s not like I was going to roll for Bagpipe in the first place. :rofl:

Though she seems like she’d be fun to use on the right maps so I’m hoping she comes at some point.

Those are pretty damn expensive though. :sweat:

720 vouchers just for 1. Since we usually get 20 from 1 run of AP-5, that’s 36 runs. 36 runs x 30 Sanity = 1080 Sanity. That’s 4 1/2 days worth of sanity just for one token. You’d need 18 days of farming just this one map to get all four. Even accounting for the 5 vouchers we get from the daily missions, and 30 from the weekly ones, plus 8 and 25 from the monthly daily logins, that still only takes away a day at most.

Seems like something to do only when someone doesn’t need to farm anything else. :sweat_smile:

5 Likes

That was pretty nice read! Just skimmed it but you didn’t mention why Bagpipe is known to be gamebreaking, her e2 talent is what makes her meta which is she gives 6 (8) skill points to vanguards on deployment if she is in the team (similar to texas and zima) @LeiCiel

Consider a s1 m3 myrtle and bagpipe in one team, myrtle can pop her skill in 3 secs, that makes all kinds of slow dp generation invalid and risk free, if objectivity is implied this needs to be taken into consideration as well.

4 Likes

This is a comparison at E2 35 and no m3 skills with Vigna with max pot. With max numbers the difference would probably be a lot.

Yeah farming for those tokens would really cost a lot :joy: though pot5 Bagpipe is necessary to breakthrough high risk CC levels (especially pyrite) if one aims for such clears then again 18 can be cleared even with 3 stars, but they will probably make it harder next time or increase the max risk requirement since max risk has been achieved during the current CC

3 Likes

If I get her I’ll bring her along but I’m not very likely to deploy her over Siege. She’s good, great even, but I like my Seiba more. :rofl:

2 Likes

Fair, but since I don’t care much for doing really high risk clears I’m probably not going to bother trying to get high pots for my ops no matter how big a difference is makes. If I get a dupe for higher pot, cool. If not, well, it’s not the end of the world. :rofl:

2 Likes

Ofc we favor our favs :fgo_rinlaugh:

I just wanted bagpipe’s actual advantage to not be glossed over is all since I like nino quite a bit

1 Like

Is there any particular reason why you decided to evaluate using just skill level 7 skills and not skill level 7 mastery 3 skills?

2 Likes

Probably to compare them at a lower investment point. Since 6* generally scales up better with higher investment.


Also, this comparison helps me see how awesome my Vigna actually is :catdance:

3 Likes

Ah, that’s a really valid point there! I was too concerned with comparing both units’ performance on their own that it didn’t even slipped on my mind on their possible synergies, or maybe any, my apologies.

@Moop has accurately explained the reason for it, which surprises me ngl. If I can add more to it, it’s mostly a personal taste of mine. I think comparing them at lower level of investments would be a more practical approach to the topic rather than comparing them at max stats. (I believe most people would spread out the level of their operators so it’s more LMD efficient, but I could be wrong)
To further add on that matter, as @wheatking have said, there’s also the fact that at higher levels the stat difference would probably serve as a limiter for Vigna, thus making her “designed” purpose to be less obvious due to larger stat difference. (She has lower level cap due to rarity after all) Though to be fair, I haven’t actually checked by how much that limiter would affect their endgame performance.

@LeiCiel @kuu0 @Moop @Nytfall @Psychedeliccreature @wheatking Thank you so much for reading and your kind comments! Very much appreciated! :v:

4 Likes

If we removed the limiter she would become One Punch Woman. :feh_marisadab:

4 Likes

A good read! I already have Vigna E2:30 M2, so my main takeaway is that good lil Vigna should still be useful even if I manage to pull Bagpipe. There might even be situations where having both on the team would be handy. Which is good to see - even if investing in Vigna is comparatively cheap, it’s still a good amount of resources I put into her to get her where she is.
That said, Bagpipe does have that SP boost trait, which will probably make her a more common addition to my team if I manage to get her.

2 Likes

Great read!
I just want to add that Bagpipe is considered gamebreaking for the fact that she basically takes vigna’s amazing atk and grani’s def and puts them into one unit. Add to that her Sp talent that makes starting battles a joke.

4 Likes