# Does the order of applied buffs matter?

During the current raid farming I noticed that my Sanzang’s NP damage varies quite heavily every run, even though I use the same party, apply same buffs and use same supports every time. One run her NP hits for around 370k (or even 310k if buster down debuff is applied), the other time for 450k.
Now, I know that there is supposedly some slight variation in damage output and that you won’t get identical numbers every time you use the same attack. But I wouldn’t call 50-70k a “slight difference”.

If the party composition doesn’t change, the applied buffs are the same and if we don’t count the “buster down” debuff as a steady recurring variable, the only explanation I can find for this damage spread is that the order of applying buffs might be the reason?
So, does the order of applying buffs affect the final damage?

buff order doesn’t matter, unless you need to buff x that isn’t gonna be around

also, more (and bigger) buffs applied means the range on the low-to-high damage thresholds is gonna skew heavily as well

my recent sitonai comp runs range anywhere from like 830k-992k, iirc. while her being hit by arts debuff puts it in the 650k-750k range, for what I remember seeing. as an example

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I’m looking at your damage numbers and they’re within the ±10% damage variance range, in fact it looks like those two
values are about the minimum and maximum.

The average of 370 and 450 is 410. -10% damage is 90% and 0.9x410=369. +10% damage is 110% and 1.1x410=451.

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Huh, didn’t know that the variance was 10%. Thought it was about 1-2%. This does explain the difference.

Did several trial runs for experiment to measure what the actual NP damage was and it did support your explaination. For the record, Sanzang’s NP was hitting for 428k, 275k (with buster down debuff), 450k, 389k, 416k, 434k, 432k.
Buffs applied to her were Sheba’s +20% buster, +17.8% attack; Merlin’s 50% buster, +20% attack; black grail’s 60% NP up and arctic code’s 32% att, 16% NP up.
This also made me realize that I can put Ox king CE on Sheba for 10% more buster buff. Completely forgot those CEs exist.

Edit: funnily enough, adding Ox king CE to the party resolved my damage problems. Now Sanzang deals around 355k with buster down debuff and very close to 480k normally, resulting in more frequent 1 turn clears.

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yea, the damage variance multiplier is anywhere from .9x to 1.1x

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So like Pokemon

Just a little note, remember that, while the order of the applied buff doesnt matter, some skills remove buffs when activated. For example, Mecha Eli’s third skill buffs NP damage but removes Def buffs. So you should activate that skill before giving Eli any kind of defensive buff.

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Well, multiplication and addition are commutative operations
A + B = B + A
A x B = B x A
for any number A and B so you can add/multiply in any order and the result is the same e.g.
A + B + C + D + E = C + D + B + E + A

ngl, I thought this was gonna lead into something about how same-type buffs are additive, different-type buffs are multiplicative

Isn’t the variance in Pokemon from 0.85 to 1?

I was thinking of that but it boils down to both multiplication and addition being order-agnostic since they don’t mixed together due to “same-type buffs are additive, different-type buffs are multiplicative”.

The situation that could potentially make order problematic is when we have something like a flat +Attack before other buffs are considered. For example, my Eresh (+Black Grail) has 14629 base attack and say Waver have a new skill add 1000 to that base attack in addition to his current Attack +30%. Then we could have
(14629 + 1000) * 1.3 = 20317.7
or
14629 * 1.3 + 1000 = 20017.7
for a difference of 300. But I don’t think there will ever be such a skill. (All existing damage plus are added after all buffs are considered. Or should I say that in addition to “same-type buffs are additive, different-type buffs are multiplicative”, we also have “flat amount buffs are all applied at the end”?)

ah yea, divinity passives and stuff like that just go after the calculations as a flat number (basically meaning you’ll always be able to do that minimum amount of damage… though the last time I remember this being of note was that summer1 rerun crabs challenge quest)