Fate's Logic for Range is BS and not explained and I'd like to see what you have to see and give me your issues as well

So, I’ve had this thought in a discord I’m in and I’ve had this issue on GamePress here. Gilgamesh’s G.O.B’s range is never said in the anime (Note, I haven’t read the manga at all.) Now, this is an issue for other servants as well, Brynhildr’s NP is too op and in a RP situation, it auto hits, I have many questions as well.

  1. Can you break Ea or any servants weapon?
  2. Is there a way for a Servant to use its other class? Like Ishtar magically and just randomly, becomes her Summer Form mid fight? Or is it limited to that Singularity? I know Singularities are very explainable.
  3. Can you explain to me how Emiya is even a servant? Yes, I know what the answer is, but I want to know how the heck Archer even came to be, not from an assassin, but due to the multiverse theory, I do know that Archer is Emiya as a servant from another world/timeline, but I want to know why, because Natsu is bs in explaining how Archer is there, when clearly, the multiverse of Emiya’s hasn’t died due to an overload.
  4. Can servants that were a mages in their past lives, still use their own Magecraft when the class they have is not one that allows the use of it and will not and cannot allow its use or death will punish them. (Like a reverse Caster in a sense)
  5. Why did Hokusai’s daughter become the servant and not Hokusai? Been wondering this for awhile now.
  6. Can a servant use a Ray-shift to reverse their own deaths? Like, if the time was right? They’d basically undo their deaths from history and never become a servant, and can they undo a Summoners Call? Because you’re going back in time, there are people at that time you go to, and Babylonia has Gilgamesh! So, can they undo the errors (Thinking of Jean De Arc here) they committed?
  7. If you know persona and all, and the reason Shadows exist, then you’d get this one. If a servant has an Alter Ego, and if this works for Persona, they accepted its existence and took it in, would they fuse, or would the Alter Ego fade away?

That’s all and I hope to make more of these, have a great day and I’ll be waiting for your answers and your questions!

read the visual novel

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The answer to 5. is that Hokusai is the servant and that’s the floating octopus with her. He just brought her along to keep him in check. Consider looking up her trial quest on YouTube

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Undoing your death wouldn’t change a thing. Besides, mortals aren’t immortal :fgo_gilles_averdi: so what would change?

This is just a alternative Grandfather Paradox except we know it wouldn’t work.

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  1. I guess you could technically overload it and blow it up… But good luck surviving Ea…

  2. No. Most “other servant class” are bullshit. Unless it’s someone like Semiramis’s double class summon skill making her assassin and caster… It won’t work.

EDIT : forgot Jekyl and Hyde’s NP… that could work I guess…

  1. Singularities are stuff that cause changes in time… What u r suggesting is exactly what would cause a singularity to form. A servant can’t rayshift to a singularity to change stuff because the master has summoned them to solve the goddamn singularity…
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Answer to number 4, yes, servants like Fionn can still use his magecraft even without been on the Caster class

Answer to number 1, kinda, the weapons and Noble Phantasms can be broken by pure strength or been overloaded to be use as a Broken Phantasm but we don’t know if you can broken EA but probably can be

Answer to number 2, no unless you are a servant with doble class, to change classes the Spirit Origin of the servant need to be modified on some way but probably can’t be don’t on mid battle.

Answer to number 3, Emiya isn’t really a servant, he is a Counter Guardian a agent of Alaya, and the Counter Guardians can be summoned as servant, for that reason you can summer people like Emiya as servants, and he technically die once and then became a Counter Guardian

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1.) It’s not impossible, it’s just hard for many Servants and might kill them if they’re sufficiently closely tied to it. On the other hand, Emiya Archer recreates his weapons as he pleases.

2.) That’s strictly limited to enemies in events, other than Jekyll and Hyde’s NP. It would be an awkward skill for a Servant to have since you would logically need to have summoned both Servant forms to use it, and not everyone would have, unless it was just a flavor change like Jekyll. Some Servants can negate some of their Class disadvantages though.

3.) Watch UBW, there’s a scene near the end where Emiya strikes a deal with the Grail.

4.) Yes. Cú Chulainn in UBW uses a fire Rune even while in the Lancer class. In F/GO both Emiyas utilize their magecraft as part of their fighting style. There is absolutely no restriction on what means a Servant can use to win a Holy Grail War, only a core strength their Class is supposed to have.

5.) They’re both in there as one entity, because they were close and Foreigners are weird about manifesting, and DW would rather create cute girl Servants than nondescript middle-aged men who are paunchy from desk work.

6.) Not really. You can’t Summon a Servant from since the last quantum time-lock of your own universe; pseudo-Servants are the closest you get. Stuff before a time-lock is locked; it takes something on the scale of a Singularity to alter history at that point and doing so threatens all of history, which is the point of resolving Singularities. I’m not exactly sure what type of Servant Ryougi Shiki and Asagami Fujino are, but they’re cross-universe anyway. BB and family are also originally from a different world.

7.) I don’t know Persona.

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Ryougi and Fujino are counter guardians as well

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  1. I can’t speak to EA specifically, but it is possible to destroy physical Noble Phantasms. EMIYA does it all the time through what the visual novel calls “Broken Phantasms,” basically self-destructing them because he knows he can just project them again.

  2. Servants can’t change their classes in Holy Grail Wars, or any title outside FGO. It’s just an in-game gimmick.

  3. EMIYA is a Servant because he made a contract with the Counterforce to become a heroic spirit, gaining the power while he was still alive in exchange for being bound as an agent of the Counterforce after his death. Since the Throne of Heroes is removed from the flow of time, heroes can be summoned from any age into any age, including from the future into the present. This is all explained in the visual novel. And there isn’t an overload of multiverse EMIYAs, as Shirou Emiya does not become a heroic spirit in every version of the Fate universe.

  4. Yes. While the Caster class is specifically for heroic spirits of magic, being in another class in no way impedes one from using magic (except maybe Berserker due to loss of sanity). Cu Chulainn uses his magic runes in the Unlimited Blade Works route of Fate/stay night to burn down the Einzburn Castle.

  5. Because waifu. If there’s a more “official” explanation, I don’t know. But that’s the gist of it when you really get down to it.

  6. If a heroic spirit rayshifting back with Guda(k)o went back and tried to kill their past self, they’d just create another singularity that would have to be undone. So no, it’s not a permanent solution. It’s also revealed in the Unlimited Blade Works route that, as heroic spirits recorded in the Throne exist outside time, erasing them via temporal paradox isn’t possible.

  7. No, because this isn’t Persona. Alters aren’t Shadow selves, a repressed part of the subconscious that the conscious self needs to come to terms with for self-actualization. They’re just alternative versions or other aspects of that heroic spirit.

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7 would be cool to see natsu do

I adore Persona, but it doesn’t really fit with Fate’s worldbuilding.

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I understand. I may try to make these questions harder and harder… so you better not doubt me.

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Very well then. :fgo_moriartysmile:

:e7_smugbell:

it’s nasu, not natsu

the fairy tail protag isn’t involved here

As far as number 7 goes, even assuming one can straight port Persona 4 rules with no issues, I’m not convinced the logic of Shadows and Alter Egos are sufficiently similar for that to track. We do have instances in FGO where a Servant does grow in strength by fighting a physical manifestation of their insecurities (Lancer Diarmud’s interlude is a prime example), but those are usually, fittingly, Shadow Servants as opposed to Alter Egos. The actual Alter Egos, with some caveats, are independent consciousnesses that exist largely independent of the parent entity, with some fudging for Kiara (who can kinda do whatever she wants because something something Authority of Beasts) and debatably Douman. I believe at one point in one of the mangas, one of the Sakura Five even manages to turn on BB despite them being specifically created to be unable to do so. So they’re very much a non-comparable to a Shadow even before you start crossing universe lines.

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So to do my best to answer what I can.

  1. Ea probably not in a way that is reasonable other servants weapons have been broken before, some like Vasavi Shakti are one time use only in Lore so they would either break after use or consume so much mana the servant would disappear after use. Many weapons aren’t Noble Phantasms themselves so can be broken.

  2. As far as we have seen only double summons can do that. As far as we know this skill is unique to Jackells NP and Semiramis in general who is basically a Caster with some Assassin Traits. There may be more out there but those are the only two I can think of off the top of my head.

  3. He is not a servant in the traditonal sense he is a counter force guardian which means he made a deal with alya itself to enhance his abilities and power and serves at its whim. In specific circumstances it appears he can be summoned as a servant ie his close connection to Rin but by and large counter force guardian are summoned as the counter force deems it appropriate. THe counter force and the throne of hero occupy all time and all multiverses so they can summon much like quantum mechanics popularizes where the effect sometimes happens before the cause. Because EMIYA is summon able in some timeline the throne and counter force can summon them to any point even before he was born.

  4. Some can it depends on the limits of their spirit graph. Heroic Spirits are summoned into their container at the prime of their ability to represent said container usually, so he can use any ability he had at the time he reach this peak. This is carried over to others. However, Cu’s spirit is weird in general though he is the only one that seems to weaken because he fits into multiple containers that have been summoned otherwise Altera would be like a mewling kitten with her what nearly 2 dozen forms now compared to his 4.

  5. Bc Elder God says so, they are available to take any complaints but no one has taken them up on that.

  6. Not really, rarely is a servant present in a time they are alive. Beyond that as long as one timeline exists where they became a servant they are still in the throne. Besides the way to resolve a singularity involves restoring proper history so whatever happened in the singularity doesn’t much matter as proper history will reassert itself if resolved and if you fail well everyone’s too dead to care.

  7. Not really how it works. Alter Egos aren’t close to shadows what they are are alterations made to their spirit graph based on either an emotion, wish, or because their spirit origin has a mix of multiple spirits in it. Some are implied to be intentional creations of their maker such as Kiara. Others are like Sitonai and really multiple deities inhabiting a vassal.

sitonai’s own profile disproves that high servant=alter ego (as well as the existence of lambda, even if her original saint graph is alter ego)

also fwiw, the original alter egos (sakura five) are called as such because they each represent a facet of bb’s own personality (ego) that she tore off from herself. them being high servants is just an addition to them being alter egos, not that they are alter egos because they’re high servants

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1: Servants can break their NP on purpose when they use it to power it up a rank. This is EMIYA’s shtick, NP copies are lowered a rank, but he "Broken Phantasm"s them so they go back up one to their original rank.

2: Not in a normal grail war. Apoc has Semiramis who has the “double summon” personal skill, and Strange/Fake’s True Archer was “distorted” by grail mud to be partly avenger-class. These are “does a little of both” and not “switching.” Divine spirits cheat. Divine spirits always cheat.

3: in some timeline, EMIYA sold his soul to agreed to be used by the Counter Force to guard humanity. Alaya pulls counter guardians from the throne of heroes. EMIYA was recorded in the throne of heroes. Alaya and the throne exist outside of timelines, and thus are not affected by causality in one timeline.

4: Yes; EMIYA, Sieg, Fionn, EMIYA (assassin), and some others explicitly have the skill “Magecraft” meaning they were famous enough for it to have it as a specific skill. Other servants can use magecraft, but it’s usually not as useful/strong/efficient as doing servant stuff, especially ones with magic magic (not to be confused with true magic), divine magic, or other, stronger, methods.

5: Katsushika is the servant.

6: Romani says that history corrects when you leave, and Gilgamesh reveals that the actual causality of rayshifting is kind of nebulous. As per 3, the answer is “no” no matter what.

7: Different rules. There’s no reason to think that Alteregoes work like that anyway, this is essentially asking if you could do this if two of the same servant was summoned.

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