FGO Servant History Discussion

Hypollyte has multiple causes of deaths in the myths.

The most famous is probably where she is slain by Herc, but there are accounts that she was killed also by Theseus.
In some accounts she dies fighting Herc or Theseus, but accidentally slain by Penth during the fight.
And in the specific of Achilles myth, Penth is in grief for having accidentally killed her during a hunt.

Some even suggest it’s a name of many different women.

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More like rape of women by soldiers was neither notable nor newsworthy until the 1980s or 1990s. It was the expected and typical result of a military victory, to the point that a General or Officer restraining his soldiers from doing so is what gets mentioned as an unusual historical artifact. The correct interpretation of every military victory (until very recently, as above) is to assume that every captured woman would have been gang-raped as a natural, expected, and normal consequence of war.

In stark contrast, a captured General or Officer of a defeated army would expect to be held for ransom. They would be treated well, because historically, Generals and/or Officers were nobility or nobility-adjacent.

With a very minimal understanding of military history, it’ s obvious why Penth doesn’t want to be called “beautiful.” She was defeated in battle, taken prisoner, and treated as a woman rather than an Officer.

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Having sex with the corpse of an enemy queen after a battle in the middle of a battlefield in front of allied and enemy armies would hardly be categorized as a “natural and expected consequence of war”.

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Actually scrap this.

This response implies accepting the version with necrophilia as the actual story, one that has a basis on absolutely nothing, as it’s not even implied on the originals.
Graus version on his post even goes as far as saying the deed happened while she was still alive, which has even less bases to sustain.

These versions were brought up literally thousands of years after those events. And if the stuff described was “not notable or noteworthy” until the late 80s, then there was no way they would’ve been found and brought up in the ~1200s by non-Greeks as what really happened.

So it’s not that “rape in war was not notable or noteworthy to menion” and that’s why it’s not mentioned in the originals. No, it simply never happened in the story, that’s why it’s not there.

In the cannon they fight, Achilles kills her, says the she’s beautiful, regrets and… proceeds to continue the war. And that’s it.

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Actually what I read earlier makes more sense. With the context they are stating now.

She likely would have been defeated and gravely injured, but not killed and then Achilles raped her so violently it caused her to die more quickley. Plus because she was a woman and women were not seen as equal to men and due to then typical the victor does what ever they want with the defeated’s property, home and culture. It makes sense that the rape would be seen a normal spoil of war and not a note worthy addition to the story. If he had raped a corpse on the other hand that would more than likely have been recorded, because even during the Greek’s time that would have been frowned upon.

Plus you must remember most myths are founded in a degree of reality so it is more than likely the story was based off of an event that took place in the time period even if it was a minor event.

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Whatever makes you like the story more, I guess.

Now “based on reality” is a funny comment, since Troy’s War happened around ~1300 BC and the first mention of this version popped up in ~1200 AD (literally more than 2000 years after) by a non-Greek, with nothing to base upon except his own interpretation, as he himself doesn’t cite any sources as well.

The version that the deed was done while she was still alive is still worse, as it has no source whatsoever, would really like to see that one, as I didn’t find it anywhere. It was either a mistake or the poster’s own fanfiction.

Gonna put it in spoilers for size’s sake some of the discussion about it other scholars had, including about the necro version :

Summary

…she is said to have been killed by Achilles, “who fell in love with the Amazon after her death and slew Thersites for jeering at him”. The common interpretation of this has been that Achilles was romantically enamored of Penthesilea [Sextus Propertius, in Book III.11, poem XI, of his “Elegies”] (a view that appears to be supported by Pausanias, who noted that the throne of Zeus at Olympia bore Panaenus’ painted image of the dying Penthesilea being supported by Achilles).

["“And, at the extremity of the painting, is Penthesilea breathing her last, and Achilles supporting her” (Pausanias, 10.31.1 and 5.11.2, noted by Graves 1960) This was the action that aroused Thersites’ scorn.]

Twelfth-century Byzantine scholar Eustathius of Thessalonica postulated a more brutal and literalist reading of the term “loved”, however, maintaining that Achilles actually committed necrophilia on her corpse as a final insult to her.

[ An act of necrophilia is not otherwise attested in any Greek epic, and this alleged act passed without notice by any commentator in Antiquity. Pseudo-Apollodorus “Epitome” v.1-2 does not mention this reading, and its editor Sir James George Frazer did not mention Eustathius’ reading in his notes. For the death of Penthesilea, the medieval Rawlinson Excidium Troie was noted by Robert Graves, “The Greek Myths” section 164, London: Penguin, (1955) 1960; Baltimore: Penguin. ISBN 0-14-001026-2]

The Greek Thersites jeered at Achilles’s lament over Penthesilea, whereupon Achilles killed him.

“When the roughneck was at last killed by Achilles, for mocking the hero’s lament over the death of the Amazon queen Penthesilea, a sacred feud was fought for Thersites’ sake”: [Abraham Feldman, “The Apotheosis of Thersites” “The Classical Journal” 42.4 (January 1947, pp. 219-220) p 220. ]

Thersites’ cousin Diomedes, enraged at Achilles’ action, harnessed Penthesilea’s corpse behind his chariot, dragged it and cast it into the river Scamander, whence, however, it was retrieved and given decent burial, whether by Achilles or by the Trojans is not known from our fragmentary sources. [Graves 1960:section 164.]

However other sources say Thersites and Diomedes were not close and this feud did not happen.

They say Thersites mocked Achilles for lamenting for Penth’s death and gouged her eyes with his spear, and then Achilles kills him.

In both versions, however, Achilles kills Thersites for mocking him over Penth’s death, and has to leave to be purified for the killing of a fellow Achaean by Odysseus.

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As the new owner of a completely F2P NP5 100 2000/2000 10/10/10 Cleo I feel like I have to explain why she has this specific trait.

So first off, something that often gets forgotten about Fate lore is that a servant is not literally a dead person, they have been warped by stories and legends, which accentuate certain attributes and characteristics, and regress others. Probably the best example of this is Vlad. In Fate lore, the real Vlad Tepes who lived during the 15th century was not a vampire. Because of stories about his tyranny and the name of Dracula, his servant appearances all have traits of being a vampire, whether as a soft vampire who is just a religious tyrant, or as a full blown actual vampire who drinks blood from ladies’ necks.

Now, Cleo. In Fate lore Cleopatra VII Philopator was reasonably beautiful, but not overwhelmingly so. What she was really recognised for was intellect. Cleo knew at least 8 languages, is probably the best economist of any character currently in the Nasuverse, absolutely excelled as a diplomat, and was the only Pharaoh in over 300 years to actually speak Egyptian, the language of her subjects. She is actually the Pharaoh with the most potential, even more than Ozymandias. This is shown in her servant by the fact that she can incarnate Uraeus, the divine right to rule Egypt, in the form of a snake, its true form, and in fact can do it pretty much permanently. Nitocris and Alexander can’t manifest Uraeus, and whilst Ozy can, he can only do it in the form of a boat. What Cleo didn’t have is luck. By the time she became the Pharaoh, Egypt was essentially already finished. There was nothing anyone could have done to save it.

Now, part 2. Cleopatra’s love life. Cleopatra only ever fell in love twice. The first time was to Caesar, and is probably the one that you’re most familiar with, and the second time was to Mark Antony, a Roman politician and general. According to ‘true’ Fate lore, this love was about as pure and girlish as it is possible to get. Cleo’s love life would put the corniest of shoujo manga to shame.

Now, why does Cleo in her servant form have an obsession with beauty? Like with Vlad, it’s because of the stories told about her. The stories ignored her intellect, her languages, and her diplomatic and economic prowess. They ignored her pure desire for love. The stories told about Cleopatra depicted her as a harlot who manipulated Caesar and Antony. These stories accentuated her desire for beauty. In the same way that Achilles ignored Penth’s prowess in warfare and just complemented her on her beauty, the stories ignored Cleo’s skills and just criticised her beauty. I believe that the reason she is a part of this event is because her character is basically a reflection of Penth. Cleo’s servant form accepted the beauty, whereas Penth’s rejected it.

Cleopatra’s beauty is the least important thing about her, yet it is what she has been forced to become as a servant. She is barely a step away from the berserker class, already willing to harm herself with her own NP.

This is why Cleopatra speaks of beauty.

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That’s a really nice touch spotted there.

Seeing some of the enemies in the story, some of them are also kinda related to this theme like Cleo, in different ways:

  • Salome - I don’t know her story in depth, but also someone who is depicted only as a harlot, thanks to her relation with John the Baptist’s end, and is also obsessed with his head.
  • Super Orion - Obsessed with beautiful women.
  • Shikibu - A erotic writer from what I heard, and in this event, a voracious romance reader (love is prob another taboo to amazons, I guess). And both eroticism and love involves beauty.
  • Phantom - Shows up in the Assassins quest. Obsessed with Christine’s beauty (not just physical).
  • Medea Lily - Could make a case, considering how both her and Penth got to their ends thanks to the actions of the more renowned males their are associated with, Jason and Achilles. While Medea is the main character of the play that has her name, inside the story Jason has far more renown, and she’s mostly known as Jason’s wife, just like how Penth is mostly known for dieing fighting Achilles.
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Love this in depth description.

Thank you! :fgo_ereshlove:

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I mean, in her interlude, when MC-kun and many others in Chaldea’s Brain trust having a meeting (in her interlude), all someone had to do was slip up once and mention his name. And there’s Penth, wondering where he is.

Yeah, this is how a traumatic people behaviour. Looking for the trauma trigger itself.

If you have traumatic event, let say you were in bus crash accident. What is proper thing to do is trying to overcome it (go to therapist if possible), or try to evade bus as much as possible though it’s not recommend. What she does literally hitting the bus with axe and burn it because she believe the bus is responsible for her trauma.

Since this is apparently still a thing we’re going over I’m making a new topic for it.

Also very hard to go see a therapist when the trauma is one you suffered when you died and Servants literally cannot change aspects of themselves like that because it is part of their Saint Graph.

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“If possible”. But probably psychology isn’t big thing in that year. Especially with Amazonness have their own way of thinking, who knows they even want to go therapy. But still, can’t justify what harm she could do to chaldea because of her personal revenge. Hell, even proper avenger like Salieri try to hold his impulse for revenge.

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Nah, it’s easy to justify. She’s a Berserker with Madness Enhancement EX. It’s honestly impressive you can have any sort of conversation with her when she has that.

Oh

Yeah this was already mentioned :+1:

The story as it’s told in the bible is that John was arrested by Herod (Can’t remember which, but one of the sons of Herod the great) because of him speaking out about Herod’s marriage to his brother Phillip’s wife, Herodias. (I think there may have been an affair of some sort involved too but I’m not sure) Herodias is the mother of Salome. Herod wanted to kill John but he feared his people since they all saw him as a prophet, so instead he just left him in prison for a while. Herod’s birthday rolls around, celebrations are happening and Salome does what is presumably an erotic dance, but it may have just been a normal dance for her stepfather and his guests. Herod is very pleased with how she did and promised until oath anything she desired. (I read that it could be up to half his kingdom but it was a historical fiction book so I’m not sure on the veracity of that) She consults her mother and decides to ask for John the Baptist’s head on a platter. Herod was super freaked out by this but they took oaths super seriously back then and he didn’t want to go back on his word in front of all his guests, so he orders that her wishes be carried out and gives her his head on a platter, then she brings it to her mother and the story ends. I’m not sure where the fate version of her’s obsessive love for John came from but I assume it has some origin in church traditom or something.

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She’s a pretty minor person in the bible, so imo it’s surprising that they chose her of all bible people to be in fate.

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Nah, I think it’s from Oscar Wilde’s play + an opera by Strauss based on Wilde’s play.

Christian iconography would portray her more as just foolish for not knowing what to ask for herself or just being a general temptress for the dance that she did for her father in law (but I don’t believe it was necessarily an erotic one, but that family was already bucking the norms by the affair between Herod and Salome’s mother (who at the time, yes, was Herod’s sister-in-law)

And this makes it sound like there aren’t any other Biblical people but there are many. David, Solomon, Sheba, Martha, Nero.

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Salome is pretty popular in fiction thanks to Oscar Wilde. She was also a vampire in the True Blood series.

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Gotcha, I guess fgo took more from Wilde’s works than the bible then.

Penthesilea was deeply insulted by Achilles calling her beautiful after defeating her in battle.
Which is most certainly a stupid thing to be insulted over. Achilles obviously meant to honour, not disparage her.
Penth, seemingly, thinks that beauty and martial prowess are incompatible, and wishes to be remembered for the latter - which is also stupid, because strength and beauty are the same.

But that’s Berserker for you. She physically can’t change that faulty line of thinking or move forward, unless something truly dramatic happens. Best she can do is “I see you can’t help but view me as a woman. Means I’ll just have to work out harder!” at bond 5.

I do wish they released her Rider or Lancer version in full adult splendour, capable of reconciliation and growth. If they do, I know whom I’m stockpiling all my grails for.

I also kinda lowkey want to roll for an Achilles and use him to finish leveling my Zerker Penth to 120 when the time comes… Wait, he’s permanent; how many SSR tickets do we get?

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We get two.

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