Five reasons why Mamoswine should be Tier 1 on the attackers tier list

1- It is the best Ice type attacker in the game, with its very good Attack stat and relatively decent defensive stats, and only Kyurem COULD surpass it.

2- It isn’t very rare to obtain, having been featured in a prior Community day and being a common spawn in the Holiday Seasons.

3- The Ice type is arguably one of the most useful, since Dragon is among the most represented types among legendary raids, and also many of those dragons have a sub-type that makes them double weak to Ice, especially Rayquaza and Zygarde.

4- Some tier 2 attackers are there because even though they have huge power, they don’t get to use it often (looking at you, Metagross). That isn’t the case with Mamoswine.

5- Just in case Heatran or Raikou come back again, Mamoswine is among the best to fight them with its ground set, because Groudon requires Rare candy and few people have a Garchomp currently.

1 Like

That is all true, but also note that Ice isn’t the best attacking type (and attacking is what raids are all about).

Ice has 1 resistance (ice) and four weaknesses (fighting, grass, rock, and fire). Of those, only fire resists ice, while grass and rock are also weak to ice, leveling the playing field somewhat. This makes Ice typing a defensive liability.

Mamoswine itself is weak to fighting, fire, grass, steel, and water, while only resisting electric (doubly) and poison. Not a great profile.

Mamoswine is outstanding in it’s niche, taking out flying dragons specifically, and dragons (non-flying) and fliers, and there is a nice synergy when it can use ground attacks on types that resist ice (fire, steel). These advantages put it squarely in tier 2, but it’s niche makes it a must have for certain raids (flying dragons).

Sliiiight nitpick, but the 4th weakness for ice is steel, not grass (Mamoswine’s grass weakness is a result of its ground-typing). Also, ice is neutral into rock rather than SE. The more you know! :grin:

That said, I agree with your assessment. As amazing as Mamoswine is, its typing is pretty awful defensively. Only two resistances and quite a few exploitable weaknesses. I have zero regrets about the investments I’ve made into my mammoth squad, as they’re exceptionally good at slaying dragons. Outside that niche, however, they take a backseat to other attacking options.

1 Like

Mamoswine’s a great attacker, but its not the greatest (though some of the tier 1, aka mewtwo, also arent).

Mamoswine’s niche is agaisnt the double ice weak dragons or really just double ice weakness, against pokemon where ice is as effective against a target as other types, like Latios, Giratina, groudon, togetic, theres a number of other pokemon that are faster and better (aside from against groudon, where its third fastest v DT/EQ, but weak to its other 2 charges). Its ground moves are not bad, but against heatran its weak to iron head, fireblast and neutral to stone edge so very risky, while Heatrans also a PvP pokemon at the moment so not the greatest of targets, but raikou its a good budget counter for especially since Psystrike’s release has put people on edge about groudon investments but thats only going to be there for one week (and if its anything like the birds, who we havent seen for a year, similarly the beasts likely wont be back for a long time after this). As a gym clearer, its good against the double ice weak dragons, but isnt an all star gym crusher like metagross or machamp for more than just those.

Zygarde, also may not be the greatest of pokemon, since it doesnt have the same top tier stats as the other dragons, and only the addition of its signature moves could really save it from being something beyond a target to beat raid rewards out of.

Mamoswine’s got a lot of good qualities when it comes to countering pokemon like rayquaza, and is at the very least a good option in a larger number of match ups, but beyond the double ice weakness (of which only 3, 4 if including mythicals, legendaries have), it does lag behind other pokemon. Its typing’s also pretty poor, so much to the point its use as a ground type is nigh nonexistent as its neutral to rock unlike other grounds, and is weak to steel and fire (though its not like ground is best for these types anyways) but can be a good option against electrics, despite their rarity as higher tier raids, and as an ice attacker theres strong competition for flying coutners (as well as only 3 flying types ice is best for, while rocks beats it against almost everything else flying) its weak to grass and theres few targets of this, ground’s also relatively scarce, but holds supreme effectiveness agaisnt 2 of them for legendaries, while nonlegendaries tend to be more weak to grass/water, and as for dragons, it only stands out agaisnt the double ice weak ones, or prior to dialga’srelease as a strong coutner that wasnt weak to dragon (though dialga’s release, and the dodge bug being fix has largely nullified this outside snowy weather).

In short, It’s strong yes, but doesnt pack the neutral DPS and shear bulk metagross has, or the reliability in being best for gym battles and nonT5 raids machamp does, and many matches its super effective for, others handle better, aside from double ice weaknesses.

That’s hardly ever a problem, since when one needs ice you rarely have to deal with charge moves of those types. If one wants to use it for ground offense, then that becomes a problem, but for ice you just need to not use it against grass, where you frankly have plenty of other alternatives. The double resistance to electric will give it a unique niche against electric/flying types, where it is as of now the #1 counter when Zapdos has either Zap Cannon or Thunderbolt. With the other charge moves Rampardos can be faster, but has way more faints.

Being the #1 pick against flying/dragon, ground/flying and depending on the moveset also the best choice against flying/electric, makes it way more useful than a lot of other pokemon in the tiers. Next, to that, it is almost always among the top 6 against anything weak to ice and despite not resisting many charge moves, it has enough bulk to do a good job even against neutral hits.
It is a very useful legendary counter, that sees more use than other tier 1 picks.

The ever so overrated Mewtwo for instance is the best choice only against fighting types, since we have yet to see a poison type legendary. In case the ultra beasts enter as tier 5 raids, Nihilego will be double weak to ground, so only Naganadel is left, which is also part dragon, so Mewtwo with how things are now wouldn’t be the top choice there either.
Giratina O is always better against the psychic legendaries, and with every other non-stab charge move you have at least 3 other options which perform way better.
As much as people love this pokemon, in PoGO it hasn’t been the top choice outside of machamp raids for quite a while now and even a buff to psystrike won’t improve it by much regarding legendary raid offense.

3 Likes

Completely agree. It is more future-proof than Machamp and even Giratina (who has Darkrai to worry about).

Accessibility is not a significant consideration for the Attackers Tier List.

To be more specific, three legendaries (Rayquaza, Landorus and Zygarde.) are doubly weak to Ice, making Mamoswine their top counter. Another eleven are singly weak to Ice and Mamoswine ranks second in DPS against four: Zapdos, Lugia, Groudon and Thundurus.

Mamoswine also ranks fourth in DPS (ignoring paper cannon Deoxys) against Tornadus and Yveltal. Although only seventh in DPS against Zekrom, it would have high TDO due to its typing.

There are better options for Latios, Latias and Giratina, but Mamoswine is still viable. For Virizion, you would want to exploit its double weakness to Flying.

Metagross and Mamoswine are both fantastic on gym offence, which the tier list seems to undervalue but matters a lot in some areas. All three psuedo-legendary dragons are doubly weak to Ice, while Metagross handles the Normal tanks and Fairy-types like a boss.

  1. It’s a mastodon-boar

Fixed. :grin:

The Tier list is a joke and has been from the beginning… Why anyone with half a brain would take it or anything Gamepress publishes seriously is way beyond me…

I would support demoting Kyogre to Tier 2 because Water is average in relevance for legendary raids (and gym offence). That may justify demoting Kingler to Tier 3.

Mewtwo is:

  • The best Psychic attacker, but Psychic is largely irrelevant
  • The 3rd best Ghost attacker (behind Gengar and Giratina-O)
  • The 4th best Ice attacker (behind Mamoswine, Glaceon and Weavile)
  • The 6th best Electric attacker (behind Electivire, Raikou, Zapdos, Magnezone and Luxray)
  • 8th in Fighting DPS (but 2nd in DPS*TDO against Blissey)
    If such flexibility earns it a spot in Tier 1, then Tyranitar deserves to be in Tier 2 and ranking Garchomp above Salamence makes no sense.

Demoting Kyogre (and perhaps Mewtwo) could help prevent Tier 1 from being too crowded if Metagross and Mamoswine get their well-deserved promotions.

1 Like

Yes it may be very contradictory to my name but addressing meta-relevance Kyogre does belong to Tier 2 in my opinion.

He said, on the forums for GamePress’s website.

2 Likes

I’ve long been a proponent of mewtwo’s demotion. Its a TM’able protean, but an extremely expensive, not to mention statistically inferior preformance one, or a counter only a single raid boss (machamp) supremely. A lot of mewtwo’s top tier status seems to be related to Shadow ball.

Yes, finally! A lot of people seem to fanblind when it comes to mewtwo, like the mention of its name makes people ignore preformance numbers and expense (while expense has never been a limiting factor for top teir mon before, most of those tended to be a one time investment in candy and TM’s, then continue on with a single set). Its a strong pokemon, but theres a lot of other things that are better and either just as expensive or less so.

Kyurem-Black and Kyurem-White specifically. Lacking an ice type fast move at the moment hurts regular Kyurem pretty badly while the two fusion formes have enough raw stats to compensate.

Like someone else said, availability typically isn’t considered when ranking overall performance. Not to mention the Community Day is irrelevant to new players.

Most useful offensively. Defensively speaking ice type sucks eggs. Saying “many” for T5 dragons is a weird way of saying only the two you mentioned, as the rest either only have a single weakness or are neutral to ice (Palkia, Dialga, Reshiram). For T5 dragons that have a single ice weakness (Lati’s, Giratina) they have better counters available.

Maybe this is just me, but outside of Rayquaza and Raikou I don’t typically call on it for raid action. We haven’t had Zapdos return otherwise I’d use it there, and it’ll see use against Thundurus and Landorus for sure.

I’d be exceptionally wary about using Mamoswine against Heatran for the same reasons I’d be wary about using it against Groudon. Being weak to all but one of Heatran’s move combinations makes it exceptionally glassy, leading to higher death counts, more relobbies, and overall worse performance. I’d lean on Donphan before leaning on Mamoswine against most Heatran.

Overall, it’s a tough call. It’s outstanding at what it does, but outside of double weaknesses it has more competition for being the best pick. On the other hand I’d say it’s more relevant than Kyogre and if Kyogre’s good enough to make the Tier 1 cut then so is Mamoswine.

2 Likes

Kyogre is top or #2 counter to a huge number of T3 and T4 bosses. This is why it’s a Tier 1 attacker. Mamoswine doesn’t come close to this level of dominance. It is never the top counter in single weakness scenarios. It is also basically never weather boosted and it’s weak to half of the types it can counter.

In any case, the current tiering was deliberated on at length among the GP staff and we do not have plans to change it without any new introductions to the game. Reasoning behind contentious picks (Mewtwo Tier 1, Metagross Tier 2) can be found in the article that was published in the update.

Tier 3 & 4? Really? Next to the significant difference in relevance, Kyogre is still only the best against those who are double weak to water or pure ground types. Rampardos is always the better choice against fire, while Metagross is always better against rock.
And as to Mamoswine never being the best. I disagree. Zapdos is a good example where it is the best choice overall. Rampardos can if it faces a weak charge move be faster, but has nearly always double the faints. Sure if there are so many people in the raid that there won’t be a relobby, then Ramprdos is better, otherwise no, Mamoswine is the better choice. The next gen will be similar to that. We have another electric/flying legendary.
Saying that mamoswine is weak against half of what it’s used is also plain wrong, since that goes for ground offense, which most people do not use Mamoswine for. If one uses it as an Ice attacker that problem rarely exists. There are several dual types which have a one sided use.
And yes, people read the comments as to why those picks were made. This thread was created in response, since people do not agree with the reasoning.

We don’t disregard counters just because they are #2 instead of #1. There’s an incredible irony in your comment, where you diminish Kyogre’s strength by citing it being a #2 counter, while hyping Mamoswine using an example where it is the #2 counter.

Neither is Mewtwo, which is now outclassed by Giratina as a Ghost attacker. Against Terrakion, it is simply worse than Metagross, while Kingler and Breloom also have higher DPS. As a Psychic attacker, it is only useful for soloing Machamp (Moltres has higher DPS but slightly lower TDO due to Rock Slide) and the Hitmons.

Mamoswine is weak to Grass, but not to Dragon, Flying or Ground.

The same argument would more legitimiately apply to Rayquaza, which has the highest DPS against seven Dragon-type legendaries but is weak to their Dragon-type moves (as well as Kyurem’s Ice-type moves).

Consider editing article (or the Tier List itself) to include:

  • Why Mamoswine failed to make Tier 1.
  • The fact that Rocket battles are not a factor.

In fact, in areas with competitive gym scenes, Metagross and Mamoswine get to flex their huge power often. Metagross is a far better generalist gym attacker than Rayquaza due to its typing.

With Metagross effective against six legendaries across all generations, compared to seven Rayquaza, while dominating both DPS and TDO charts (Rayquaza only dominates DPS charts), this “limited use for huge power” argument does not make sense to me.

2 Likes

Neither is Mewtwo, which is now outclassed by Giratina as a Ghost attacker. Against Terrakion, it is simply worse than Metagross, while Kingler and Breloom also have higher DPS. As a Psychic attacker, it is only useful for soloing Machamp (Moltres has higher DPS but slightly lower TDO due to Rock Slide) and the Hitmons.

Mewtwo has attacking utility in 3 relevant types plus Psychic. It counters Dragon, Flying, Grass, Ground, Water, Ghost, Psychic, Fighting, Poison. Mamoswine has about half of that relevant coverage (because Ground is only useful vs. Electric or double weakness scenarios).

The same argument would more legitimiately apply to Rayquaza, which has the highest DPS against seven Dragon-type legendaries but is weak to their Dragon-type moves (as well as Kyurem’s Ice-type moves).

Sure, but Mamoswine is never the top DPS anyway in those scenarios where it is weak to the boss’s moves. Its lack of insane bulk plus useful resistances is another mark against it being a Tier 1 attacker. Also, my bad, I brain farted on the Ice weaknesses.

Consider editing article (or the Tier List itself) to include: Why Mamoswine failed to make Tier 1.

Honestly, basically the entire staff was in agreement that Mamoswine was obviously not a Tier 1 attacker. We thought it was obvious based on numerous factors: it’s never the top DPS in single weakness scenarios, (so not like Rayquaza or Rampardos), it doesn’t have insane bulk to back up amazing offense (like Kyogre or Gira-O), it’s weak to a lot of counter coverage which hurts its bulk even more, and it’s never weather boosted for many players. We stuck it into Tier 2 and didn’t give it more of a passing thought. The only reason people think it’s a Tier 1 attacker is because of recency bias, where it was being used everywhere against Rayquaza.

In fact, in areas with competitive gym scenes, Metagross and Mamoswine get to flex their huge power often. Metagross is a far better generalist gym attacker than Rayquaza due to its typing.

I don’t actually agree with this, and having used Metagross as a gym attacker, I wasn’t impressed by its ability. Metagross has a problem where most of its damage comes from Meteor Mash. It takes longer to KO lower motivation defenders because Metagross has to charge a cycle of Meteor Mash, while Machamp, for example, can KO things pretty quickly with just Counter, and use a Dynamic Punch on the next defender.

Actually, I just pointed the double standard that people complain about and how the same points listed could be also aplied to two of the tier 1 picks.

All of the listed things apply to mewtwo too. Only against Machamp & the Hitmons its the best and those aren’t relevant raid choices to begin with, since they are just tier 3 raids. For every non STAB move you have 3-6 better options and investing into one of the non STAB moves is frankly pointless at this point, due to most budget options from said types performing better (glaceon, flareon, magnezone).
It’s also not that bulky either and has only two resistances, meaning that when faced with psychic types that have non STAB moves, the rest of the counters perform better, while vs psychic moves Weavile and Tyranitar have less faints and more or less the same time to win).
And no, people consider it tier 1 worthy, because it is by far the best pick from it’s type and will be like that for a while. Yes, kyurem will be here sooner or later here, but it doesn’t have an ice fast move and it’s weak to dragon, plus it would need dragon tail+ice beam to come close, while getting blizzard or dragon breath instead would push it down in performance and I could easily see Niantic giving it the Dialga treatment due to “game balancinh”
That being said, Metagross deserves the tier 1 more and it’s silly that it is now excluded due to not there being proper counters yet, despite the upcoming gens having many raid bosses where it will do a fantastic job. Same for Moltres, considering it dominates from both types.