Hmm, does Grailing affect NP looping(?)

So I went ahead and trailer Lancelot to 90 mainly because I thinks he’s awesome, and also committed to leveling 10 Paras 3rd skill and I can consistently loop the daily XP node, and was wondering how much of a difference would those 2 grails even have on looping if any at all…

also with double Skadi + NP1 Lancelot (level 90 1k fous) + MLB one summer + Para how well could I loop event nodes?

I unfortunately don’t have a trailer K Scope since I’m FTP and not very lucky AT all when it comes to CE

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Grails only make a difference if they make him kill enemies a hit or two earlier, leading to more overkill hits. This of course depends on how many HP the enemies have.

Speaking from experience, against Assassin and Berserker mobs an NP4 Lancelot with double Skadi struggles to refund 50%, but with help from Para it shouldn’t be a problem.

The only potential problem is that NP1 might not always deal enough damage, especially since using Para as 3rd support limits you to Plugsuit, instead of any of the Mystic Codes with better buffs.

Edit: Ah, without KScope you have to use a Skadi battery early. In that case I’m not sure.

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I think NP gain is affected by how much damage you do, but on Zerkerlot it won’t matter due to his atrocious NP gain in general.

At NP1 he’d struggle to refund enough even if you grail him. In fact he’s one of the more tricky loopers for Skadi setup, even if you have a non-MLB kscope you’d need plugsuit + Waver to make him work. Unfortunately he’s not as easy to work with, compared to Dantes/Atalante/Parvati/Valkyrie.

Also one summer is pretty bad since it doesn’t have any dmg stat. We’ll get a better alternative this coming Christmas, but it still won’t be enough to make Zerkerlot loop easily without Waver.

@KamikazeAardvark: I think it’s only affected when you can clock in more overkill hits, but cmiiw.

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Not sure, I seem to refund more with Attack up but it could just be I’m forgetting overkills.

Also DB is decent if you don’t have a better CE. +10% attack for the first NP and is at least a split CE as opposed to pure health.

It helps but only slightly in increasing the chance of an additional overkill.

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Yeah, increasing damage through any means like grails, gold fous, np levels or additional buffs only helps refund via getting more overkill hits, the damage itself isn’t directly doing anything here. think of it as basically just hitting the next overkill damage threshold up and getting that hit in with the bonus refund.

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:feh_ceciliaculture: a master of culture honoring the mad crit lord

Just the two grails probably won’t make much difference most of the time, but every little bit helps. Between 80 and 90 zerkalot goes from 10477 to 11577 attack, so it’s 1100 more attack, a bit more effective than gold fous without grails. More np levels will make the most improvement though, and unfortunately he’s allergic to rate ups. Fortunately spooking is an option.

My zerkalot is 90 and gold fous and np3. Back during Gilfest I did some comparisons on unusual support options for non native skadi. I used two different CE’s: non mlb kscope at lvl 40 and KoM at lvl100. There’s roughly 1000 atk stats difference between the two (and the 15% quick from KoM). I was mostly focused on damage output at the time, but more damage leads to sooner overkill which leads to more overkill bonus np gain and therefore refund, and with similar support setups, when I had to use the kscope instead of KoM the damage difference was substantial.

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Lancelot’s NP damage is all backloaded so refund isn’t affected all that much.

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Grailing Zerkerlot from 80 to 90 helps with NP gain indirectly since higher damage numbers -> more overkill -> better NP refund. However, the key challenge of looping with Zerkerlot is his NP gain skill is only 1 turn. So you’d have to directly charge his NP with battery supports for the final wave.

I did a similar setup with a NP1 lvl 90 Zerkerlot but I used a Normal Kscope + Double Skadi + Waver setup for the lottos to make sure he can 3 turn all nodes. I’m not sure if you’d have enough NP charge to do 3T without Kscope and Waver :frowning:

It’s a bit complicated, but the short answer is “no.”

The longer answer is that it contributes to looping in the same way that higher NP levels do: It makes it easier to get overkills, and overkills are where the lion’s share of the NP gain comes from.

At NP1 without a Kscope (MLB or not), even with double Skadi, you’ll have difficulty looping anything more than the lowest of HP Mobs.

You’ll also need Waver or 2004/Mage’s Association, even with a Kscope.

Grails affect NP looping quite a bit. Its one of the gameplay mechanics where it is always recommended to level your Main DPS for simply because more dmg=more refund=less rng= cleaner clears. even the smallest of stats can mean the diff between sometimes 4t sometimes 3 versus a fully consitent 3t run. Its also especially helpful for CQs. So yes grailing your best looper(Preferably) to a 100 if you use em a lot is never a bad choice

Honestly I would not bother grailing Lancelot at NP1. I wouldn’t even grail him at NP2. Anyway. Grailing does help with refund but it’s such a small amount that I wouldn’t recommend it unless you truly enjoy the servant in question. I actually took my NP5 to 90 to help with refund before Xmas Lotto and I have no regrets. Was able to 3T every node with the help of a wave 1 clearer without DSS+Waver. But again NP5 + Lvl90 and Kscope go a long way. (I ran 5-Slot comp)

Tldr: Save your grails for a servant you genuinely enjoy using and won’t grow bored of soon after.

Honorable mention: Dante returns this Summer for Summerfes if you rather have a servant that is more reliable at lower NP levels however NP2 is ideal for farming.

This is super misleading

NP gain is affected by hitcounts and overkill hits

Zerklot has 30 potential hits, so despite having a low base NP gain modifier, that 50% bonus adds up.

So grails = more atk = more potential for overkill ~> more potential for better NP gain, but

That’s unreliable at best and a waste of grails at worse.

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I was mostly referencing that I believe I’ve gotten a little more NP gain when having ATK up buffs but that it was minor and wouldn’t be worth investing in extra ATK because without overkills or his S3 active Zerkerlot has some of the worst NP Gain in the game. Figured if they were asking a question like that they probably already knew about Overkill NP Gain.

An increase in attack isn’t going to have a huge effect on overkill hits thanks to their damage distribution though.

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Not to beat the point to death, but in case any new people catch only this part, it should be reiterated that ATK Up has no direct influence on NP gain. None. Overkill/overgauge hits are the only way to generate more NP through damage.

Zerkerlot’s NP gain for face cards is very poor due to his low hit counts and gorilla deck.

For his Noble Phantasm, however, it’s quite good since his hit count is extremely high. It’s no small thing to have the internals and the kit necessary to consistently hit 50%+ refund from NP alone as a Quick attacker. His biggest disadvantage in the traditional farming environment is having restrictive requirements for CE and MC.

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Setting aside the damage benchmarks for event nodes (and the answer is a no), how do you get this set up to work even in daily embers? Can you get 100% refund on 1 turn even if it’s all caster hands?

To expand on this

over 70% of zerkerlot’s NP damage is on the last 5 hits with 50% coming from the last 3. Regardless of how much you increase his attack stat, it is unlikely that you can get to overkill before these hits

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Casters give you amazing NP gain though.

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I love how DW decided in the beginning that Casters were delicious and Berserkers tasted like shit.

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