How would the 4 star assassins be ranked if Shiki didn't exist (or was a gacha servant)?

Hey guys, this question just popped up in my head after I levelled up my chiyome a bit and tried her out. From what I’ve experienced, she isn’t that bad as some people make it out to be. While I do concede that her damage isn’t the best, I think it can be overcome with proper support (though that’s true for just about everyone really), especially with her high np gain. However, the age old question pops up: Why use any other 4 star assassin when shiki is free? This got me wondering, how would the tier list have changed if we didn’t get such a strong welfare? The same discussion could be had 4* riders and kintoki tbh.

4 Likes

Most of the 4* assassins are rated low because they just don’t deal damage.

Kerry actually deals more damage than Shiki at equal NP levels, but since Gamepress evaluates at NP1, he’s not so great.

Same with Chiyome. Perfectly serviceable at NP2. But GP evaluates at NP1.

Shiki is a free NP5 with a proper 50% Mana Burst (a rarity among Assassins).

The only 4* assassins that are comparable are the horribly underrated Carmilla—but even then, smaller battery and smaller steroids bar the potential for special attack damage—and Wu—who has to rely on Imperial Privilege.

Chiyome is definitely a poor man’s Shiki—same battery, smaller steroid, similar NP. Kerry trades NP access (and his NP is very, very good) for stargen…but active stargen is always worse than passive stargen. Neither of them are too fantastic. You may as well grail Hundred Personas or try to roll extra copies of Kerry or Chiyome.

14 Likes

Not much actually, Shiki will still be the strongest general-use SR Assassin. 30% battery and higher neutral damage than her competitors other than IP Wu.

Same with Kintoki. Welfare or not Kintoki is utterly busted and outperforms other SR Riders as damage-dealers by a wide-margin even without free NP5. DW pretty much give up making SR ST Riders after Kintoki, only giving us another welfare in Ryouma who’s pretty undertuned as a damage-dealer.

Making Kintoki gacha only means SSR Riders become relatively more appealing because Kintoki lacks free NP5 to embarass a NP1 SSR damage, same applies to Shiki.

8 Likes

I have NP2 Chiyome, and I have used her a couple times in my arts team. She’s okay. Nothing particularly remarkable, good or bad.

Unfortunately, her skills are stuck at 8, since she wants a ton of dust that I need for Skadi. Yesterday’s bone-anza finally let me get Shiki’s skills up to 9, and I am waiting to get more experience using her before committing any lores.

Kerry was my first gold assassin, but I was almost entirely buster focused before very recently, so he got very little use.

I guess I can test all three of them for a while, but I just don’t run into many situations that call for a ST Assassin that wouldn’t be better handled by Mecha Liz.

9 Likes

I joined when Fgo NA opened for global, there was no shiki for a long time.
My SR ticket choice was Carmilla, and i was surprised she could not 1 hit NP kill a 120k HP female boss so I learned to rely on her spamming NP twice.
Now, i got more 4* assassin at NP2 or higher before I got the rerun Shiki. Funny thing is my Carmilla is still NP1, while Kerry is Np2 and Wu Zetian is NP3.
To be honest, Shiki came too late for me but I still rotate her in sometimes.
I don’t think Shiki so much affected the tier listing for assassins even if she’s at the top.

5 Likes

Next year, she will get rank up quest. NP dmg, armor penalty. Give her grails and 1800% art at NP5^ can make her NP output near Jack NP1 hit a female

4 Likes

I have NP5 Chiyome.

Very good NP damage, good NP refund, battery, gain easily NP Gauge per hit.

I’ll let people that dislike her say that she is weak.

In the mean time, i use her and maim riders :wink:

3 Likes

Without Shiki?
Carmilla: the best ST damage dealer for females
Wu: the best ST damage dealer for everything else, plus decent support
Scathach: the best AOE nuke

Everyone else is pretty weaksauce, with Kiritsugu being so-so.

1 Like

Emiya would still be crippled by his np gain. Chiyome is a good substitute but she doesn’t pack quite enough burst damage In the end it’s down to her Carmilla and Wu if Shiki doesn’t exist. If shiki exists in the gacha np1 vs np1 she still takes the crown. Just a very very good skillset. A np battery, a damage buff and an evade with a crit damage buff is situational but useful. All her skills work in a boss killing situation. . Wu and Carmilla are missing a hard survival skill as st boss killers.
Without Shiki I’d personally have the SR’ around this but it’s very close between Carmilla, Chiyome and Wu. Emiya and Assassin of Shinjuku are far below those 3 in my book
1a would be chiyome 1b would be Carmilla followed by Wu and Emiya. It’s situational as Carmilla has a lot of damage potential depending on the matchup now that she has her interlude and strengthening

I think Scathach assassin and Danzo would still not be valued all that much. Fuuma isn’t the best aoe but good enough but he is a superior star gen and is very strong in CQ’s. That’s her competition.

If Shiki never makes it into the game I think it’ll be a couple of servants to be released that would probably take the crown but it’d probably be a 3* who takes the crown (Izo &100face). I’d personally prefer them at np5 vs np1 sr

3 Likes

I have an NP3 Chiyome and I use her more than Shiki tbh. She may lack some of Shiki’s damage but her skills offer good synergy in arts teams, doesn’t have that demerit that Shiki does and with crit down and skill seal she shuts Riders down with ease. Ivan could barely do a thing to me, crits were gone and I only saw Emergency Prerogative once.

3 Likes

forehead loli seem to do decent damage. Sadly her quick buff doesnt affect herself

1 Like

Exactly.

Waver - Chiyome - Tamamo

Change waver after buffs with whoever you like, Vlad III for example i did

1 Like

I don’t find the demerit an issue at all.

The spike damage from a 50% Arts up + ignore invincibility + ignore defense buffs on np is more valuable IMO.

But bear in mind my Shiki is bond 10 now and I’ve only started actively using np2 Chiyome in the last week or so. I just can’t shake the feeling when I use her that I wish I was using Shiki instead. It’s close but not close enough for me.

1 Like

Okay, so on second read, is the idea that we are taking all the 4* Assassins as if they were from the gacha, and compare them at NP1? If so:

  • Shiki: Even without NP5, she would still be at the top of the pack. Her kit is very vanilla, but solid all around, and she still retains her good internals, and an upgraded NP.
  • Summer Scathach: Her sole defining feature is her NP5 noble phantasm. Take that away, and she would only have a mish-mashed skillset and weak internals, making her pretty weak.
  • Carmilla: Great internals, team support, and with her upgraded NP hitting a very wide niche, she is also great on the damage front, with her only noticeable weakness being her lack of hard survival.
  • Kerry: His kit has some utility, and his upgraded NP hits fairly hard, but I would still pick Shiki over him at NP1 just for the better internals and battery. It also doesn’t help that they want the same mats, as if they weren’t competing enough.
  • Wu: Good damage dealer, with team support and some sustain for herself. No hard defense though, and her NP only becomes really good after her upgrade. Overall, still a really good servant.
  • Danzou: She has an interesting kit, but her damage is just not good enough to be viable most of the time, an issue that most assassins face, and she suffers the most out of the pack.
  • Chiyome: Good internals, but weaks stats and an un-upgraded NP still makes her sub-par when compared to Shiki. Not bad, but not that amazing either.
  • Summer Nito: Her kit is borderline garbage, and she has the same damage-output problem as Danzo.
  • Stheno: You can utilize her for charm-lock strats, but said strategies have been stealth-nerfed with later lostbelts, and more importantly, she is pretty much useless outside of this one niche (and no, divine-buffing doesn’t count as a saving grace, when half a dozen other servants can provide similar support without being a dead weight)
  • Sassy-shin: I really wanted to like this guy, but his kit is really quite bad, and his main role of an active star generator is generally considered outdated by passive stargen methods. His future skill-update gives him a bit of a boost, but only just enough not to be useless anymore.

So, if I would have to rank all the 4* assassins at NP1, it would go like this
Tier 1: Shiki, Carmilla, Wu
Tier 2: Kerry, Chiyome
Tier 3: Summer Scathach, Nito, Danzo, Yan Qing, Stheno

8 Likes

Upvote for bone-anza, I always appreciate a good pun. :fgo_kiyo:

5 Likes

I don’t understand why kerry’s np gain has to be so undertuned. He is decent though, and pairing him with hundred persona would probably be my go to if shiki isn’t available

1 Like

Why do people explore? Because there’s more out there than what you’re familiar with.
Perhaps you’re focusing on a different card type, or perhaps you pick someone else to better match skills with the rest of the team. Perhaps you pick someone better-suited to your strategy, or perhaps you even pick someone else just to try them out. There could be many a reason. I’ve actually not used Shiki all that much, plenty of other assassins to try out that work well in the situation I use them for.

And the same counter-argument here. Even more so, because most riders are AoE, so comparing them to Kintoki’s ST focus is like apples and oranges.

Okay, but where is Shiki’s passive star gen? From a CE you would need to have and equip to her. So I don’t see this really being an argument, since you can do the same for Kerry, if anything it means you have more variety with Kerry because he’s good at generating stars actively as well. You could swap out a 2030 for a CE that gives 4 stars and gives two good buffs like some of the event CEs we have.

Eventually will for Hundred Personas, Kerry is already NP3 so he’s doing fine for damage, and don’t have Chiyome yet, but hopefully someday, gotta get the ninja squad together.

1 Like

I would agree, Shiki has great damage, but doesn’t make anywhere near enough stars to make a difference.

1 Like

For me, the actual answer to this question is bond quartz. This is why I’m constantly rotating out gold servants and 3-turning is usually about the farthest thing from my mind, haha. Laugh if you want! :joy:

4 Likes

If shiki just flat out didnt exist it would still be hard to gauge since all the ST arts asassins she competes with have their own thing going on.

Chiyome has nice utility and can spam, but has pitiful NP damage at NP1

While Emiya hits harder but has horrible NP gain.

I personally prefer Hundred Personas over both of them but theyre a 3* and I’m biased towards them

1 Like