I found a Salamence niche Rayquaza cannot fulfill

Yesterday, in the Latios raid, he ran Zen Headbutt (I think) and Solar Beam. I used a Salamence when I saw the moveset as double resists Grass attacks and got able to throw 3 Draco Meteors. Rayquaza could never have done that which is a very notable performance difference. Against anything that can endure enough hits or the right movements, Salamence will be always the superior option. I wonder now if it would work with Palkia in an scenario when the charged move is Fire or Water type who has higher overall stats or how Dialga would do, both are stuck in Draco Meteor.

Well, Rayquaza also double resists grass, so I suppose it would also perform very well. I guess Ray being better than Salamence comes down to the number of Outrages it’s able to launch. I ran some simulations in GoBattleSim and found performance to be very similar. Both perform about the same, the difference coming more from luck than from the pokémon you chose.

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Salamance and Rayquaza are the same typing Dragon/Flying so there is no difference there.

You said that salamance is able to fire 3 Draco Meteor (450 damage for 300 energy), normally one would think that Rayquaza would be able to fire the “same amount” of attacks, to do about the same amount of damage Rayquaza would need to fire 4 attacks (440 damage but for only 200 energy), but seeing the lesser amount of energy needed for the attacks one could assume that Rayquaza could probably manage one more attack… and then Rayquaza would have the advantage.

1 Draco Meteor is supposed to have more power than 2 Outrages, meaning that 3 DR would overpower 6 Outrages. The advantages coming from Rayquaza not learning DM.

According to Pokebattler, Rayquaza with DT/O still has better TTW than DM Salamence against Zen Headbutt/Solar Beam moveset, although for Salamence, DM does have a very slightly shorter TTW than Outrage.

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Sir?

DM has 150 damage.

Outrage has 110 damage.

2 Outrages have a total of 220 damage.

220 > 150

So 2 Outrages are more powerful than 1 DM. There.

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Let me step in and moderate that:
One DM deals 150 damage and takes 3.6 seconds. 2 Outrages deal 220 damage but takes 7.8 seconds. So once you have fired your DM, you have 4.2 seconds where you can fire off fast moves, here 3 dragon tails (almost 4 actually) which deal 15 damage each, so one DM + 3 dragon tails = 195. If you round up and count that 4th dragon tail, that is 210 damage in 0.2 more seconds. So this is veeeeeeery close.

All this is before considering wasted energy with DM, being a one bar charge move.

Long story short: very close in performance.

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Dragonite: dragon breath more powerful than dragon tail? Gamepress disagrees. Any idea why the numbers tell different things?

Cooldown yes, but how long does it take to load the Draco Meteor?

Dragon tail has 15 power and 9 energy: Draco Metoer needs 100 energy so that takes 12 Dragonn tails, Outrage needs only 50 energy so takes 6 Dragon Tails…

According to Pokehub the time to first activation (first time you can fire your charged attack):
Salamance with Dragon Tail - Draco Meteor 13.2 seconds
Rayquaza with Dragon Tail - Outrage 6.6 seconds

According to Pokehub the DPS and TDO for Rayquaza are higher then for Salamance .

According to Pokebattler the time to win is shorter (just) for Rayquaza then for Salamance. (Deaths are the same)

No matter how you look at it pure from the numbers Salamance doesn’t beat Rayquaza.

Yes, I simplified with a starting point of “my pokémon has 100 energy”, which means 12 dragon tails have been done that allows you to fire off one DM or two outrages in a row, which is the point of dirrerence I was interested in. The idea is that in 17.5 sec (+/- 0.1 sec), you can fire off 16 dragon tails and one DM, or 12 dragon tails and 2 outrages, and cycle indefinitely until you faint.

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Keep pointing it, I will clculte it closely to draw interesting conclusions when I arrive at home.

This outrage vs Draco meteor have been discussed many times. Basically 2 Outrages Rayquaza< than 1 Draco meteor Salamance, but 3 outrages Rayquaza > than 1 Draco meteor Salamance. The second scenario happens more (in the original example is more likely 3 Draco meteors< than 7 Outrages).

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What we’ve been saying here, mostly, is that while 7 outrages Ray is clearly and without question superior to 3 DM Salamence, even the 6 outrages Ray VS 3 DM Salamence is moot. The difference in cycle DPS is so small that you can’t ignore factors like wasted energy, which is due to luck (depends on when the raid boss fires its charge moves).

So, this niche being not reliable and even questionable, I am hereby siding in the opposition camp.

That being said, Salamence still has great performance and can very well filll a team lacking Rayquazas :slight_smile:

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Nobody said that Salamance was a bad Pokemon, we are only saying that Salamance isn’t all that Superior :wink:

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Dragon Tail is indeed more powerful than Dragon Breath, thus has a slightly shorter Time To Win. If you click the Dragonite image on the page, you’ll see that DB + O has 721.2 s as TTW, while DT/O has 719.4 s.

As for why it puts DB/O at the front, it has something to do with the page’s setting. One part is because the link has “Dodge Specials PRO” and “Realistic Dodging” in the “Custom Raid” section, which I don’t know why it’s stuck like that in the link and I apologise for the inconvenience. When you factor into dodging, then Dragon Breath indeed has some advantage. It has a much shorter cool down than Dragon Tail while still maintaining a good DPS, thus much easier to dodge and potentially allowing you to fire more Outrage. But if you change “Dodge Specials PRO” into “No Dodging” and click “Find Best Raider” again, you’ll see that DT/O is back at the front.

Another part is because the page is sorted by “Estimator” instead of “Time To Win”. When sorted by TTW, Pokebattler considers the pure DPS, but when sorted by Estimator, it takes into account of the time lost when relobbying. Again, when you click the Dragonite image, you can see that with DB/O, the estimated death is 18.26, while DT/O it’s estimated with 21.56. Therefore, with good RNG, you might be able to avoid a relobby with DB/O and dodging, but it’ll be much more difficult or even impossible with DT/O and dodging. But if you sort the page by TTW, DT/O will be at the front again too.

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:ok_hand: High quality reply, thanks.