Is it worth grailing Raikou, gameplay-wise?

Raikou’s at 10/10/10 NP1, planning to grail and dump my gold fou’s on her.

Is it worth it, gameplay-wise? Will she be used as support more often? Won’t she be powercreeped soon by current JP servants?

My next candidate for grailing/fou is Penthesilea, at 6/6/6 NP1. If she’s at 10/10/10 I’d grail her first due to what I read how effective Penth is. I have the same questions as above for her, too.

Why Berserkers, though?

I have Georgios and d’Eon and other FP taunt servants in reserve and now I can cheese most CQs and missions using these two rotating their taunts and either Penth for ST deletion or Raikou for sweeping waves.

I still haven’t grailed anyone else.

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Grail for love, not for gameplay.

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Grailing for gameplay means you have damage benchmarks set for the servant in question which can only be met via grail stats. If you have no such benchmarks set then there is no meaningful way to quantify the gameplay returns of your grails.

Unlikely you will feel the difference. I don’t know what CEs you are putting on her but high NP level Raikou with MLB scope is fairly common, a random L100 NP1 Raikou is not going to compete against them.

Penth is not going to get powercreeped. But Raikou will eventually in the form of Arjuna Alter. With that being said, unless you do plan on rolling Arjuna Alter such powercreep has zero relevance to your personal roster.

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I’d grail a lot of servants in a heartbeat, just double checking if there’s someone who should get it first…

You shouldn’t grail Raikou if you expect to get more FP. In JP, people are only intrested in your Caster support slot (basically the top meta support).
Later Raikou is powercreeped by Arjuna Alter but if you like her, feel free to grail her.

Well, people select Bride fairly often too. But yeah, mostly they look for Skadi/Waver/Tamamo/Merlin.

Re:OP—Grail for love. Raikou doesn’t need more stats and given the choice between NP2 and Lv 100 I’d pick NP2.

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Check your feelings and grail the one you love most, that’s all that matters :fgo_astolfo:

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From a gameplay perspective, Grailing an SSR Servant is fairly inefficient due to the fact you only get 2 levels per Grail rather than 5. However, that being said, any Servant will appreciate the extra stats, especially classes (such as Berserker) that have a damage modifier of 1.1x/110%. On top of that, Berserkers deal 1.5x/150% damage to basically every class. With that in mind, Raikou would benefit from Grails. That being said, however, if I were to be choosing a Support, and I saw a LV100 NP1 Raikou and a LV90 NP2 Raikou, I’d take the NP2 one in a heartbeat (assuming same skill levels). The extra stats help, but they’re not going to make a big difference.

At the end of the day, as has been said multiple times already, Grail for love, not gameplay. If you really like Raikou, Grail her to 100.

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The only servants with noticable benefit from grailing are low rarities, and they need lots of grails for it to have a marginal effect. Giving an extra 10 levels or so isnt really a big impact on gameplay value

As others have asserted, graining an SSR is pretty much never “worth it” from a mechanical standpoint. You’re spending 5 grails and about as much exp as it took to reach level 90, just to gain about 1,000 Atk/HP. SSRs already have such high stats that an extra 1k isn’t going to make a noticeable difference.

If you grail an SR to 100, they will have stats approximately equal to a level 90 SSR, so that can be worthwhile if there is an SR you really like and want to make competitive with SSR options.

A R servant will never reach SSR-level stats, but they will get relatively more benefit from the extra stats, so if you really like their skills, grailing them can make them more viable in high-end content. They’ll never be as strong as a gold servant, but they can at least carry their own weight.

Bronze servants are just never going to be competitive. While they do get much more relative benefit from additional stats, they’re too weak to really be useful, even when fully grailed. Probably not worth the investment.

The efficiency theory has never resonated with me at all. It’s not like we have a shortage of QP or embers, and while a couple of grails provide a much greater statistical improvement on a lower-rarity Servant, who cares unless you’re already really invested in using them?

If you love the character, regardless of rarity and other concerns, grails are good.

If math is a factor in your decision at all, you’ll prioritize classes that have bonus ATK mods and/or desirable defense advantage before you consider any Casters or Assassins unless love wins.

Like do you even play FGO

Hans, Leonidas, and Georgios totally benefit from the extra HP. Caligula becomes a monster with more attack. Arash and Spartacus become even more exceptional farmers when taken beyond 60. Of those, probably only Leonidas is the one who does a job that can’t be replaced by a gold servant (taunt support for buster crit Zerkers/Avengers in Merlin teams) but grailing bronze servants certainly makes them better.

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Yeah, I stick to my assertion. I don’t think any of those that you mentioned really need grails to do what they do, and will never be the optimal choice over a gold servant.

I never said grailing a bronze doesn’t make them better. I said they aren’t worth the investment, considering the competition.

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I’ve got an 80 Hans and he’s still squishy lol, you would literally, mathematically, gain far more from lucking into an MLB 2030 and bombing that if you wanted to add a buffer to his HP (or like, slotting in Ideal Holy King). The difference is broadly negligible. Arash and Spartacus are still top-tier farmers even at 60, and the latter is outstanding but functionally replaceable with a bunch of other shiny golds and really asks for a lot of grails to get competitive. Caligula is, even having used him a fair bit, a gimmick. A fun one, but nonetheless. Georgios’ really the only good example you brought up if you want to, and giving Leo more HP would make him outright harder to sac.

I do think ‘weak’ was an ineffective descriptor and certainly myriad low-rarities have unique or at least worthwhile roles. But that’s not very convincing, at all.

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Perhaps “weak” was a bit unfair, but I’d like to point out that the only examples provided as ostensibly worthwhile grail candidates are those who have a unique mechanical niche that generally isn’t directly tied to their base stats. Arash is good because he can nuke an early wave and then make room for a better unit. George and Leo are taunt supports that, more often than not, are expected to die before their taunts wear off. Hans is a pure support servant. Only Sparty and Caligula are pure DPS options, and both are mostly good because of their low investment cost, not their actual effectiveness.

Most of these are stand-outs because they are useful despite their low stats. Increasing their stats will have only marginal benefit, and usually you’d be better served with a higher-rarity servant, anyway.

Grails are extremely rare and valuable resources. I am of the opinion that such resources should be used to make good units better, not to make mediocre units less bad. Especially when the mediocre units function just fine in their niche without them.

I can vouch for Leon at 80 with bond-CE - can provide 3 turns of 40% red-up goodness coupled with War Cry at 10 while still having about as much health as basic St. Georg. In Shimosa, he tanked Tomo beautifully for a full 4 turns thanks to grails’ bump to HP.

There’s also the issue of deploy-cost - having a low-star unit hit higher benchmarks of health/damage while still allowing room in the team for 2 or 3 properly kitted out 5-star can matter in a stage or two.

Regarding OP, myself, I do have Raikou at 90 4/9/9 with MLB Kaleidoscope parked on her, NP1 at first, recently NP2. She did get borrowed a number of times even before NP2 arrived, used to clear a trash wave and have crits ready a turn later, I imagine. Grailed to 100, while the added stats may not do much for her NP she will hit for higher crit-numbers than at 90, so if you mainly get mileage out of her crit-burst you can’t go wrong with grails sent her way.

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Perhaps…

Yeah, I’m mostly being a little pedantic rather than anything else. Although I also wouldn’t call them mediocre so much as broadly situational (Ana, Yan Qing, Diarmuid and Saber Gilles and others I feel are better called outright mediocre, and IMO you could use the ‘mediocre’ George more than either of those for practicality) either since that’s dependent on kit and crap rather than rarity. Hans’ solid, just easily outclassed, and also like CasGil the bulk of his strength lies outside of what he does with his Caster balls… A better argument for the tanks to me would be the fact that Georgios and Leo demonstrably do not need grails in order to be ‘viable’ in harder content even beyond “3T meatshield then die” contexts.

Otherwise, yeah, on the same page.

Well really the answer is to grail who you like and use a lot in the end, regardless of anything.

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As a fellow master with a grailed raikou, the only answer is… yes. Grail her lancer form too.

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Regarding this discussion on grailing lower vs higher rarities, my point on the quantifying the gameplay return of grail remains.

If you can say this extra stat gained by grails makes a difference in what you are trying to do, and there is no alternative other than grailing, then there is a gameplay return to those grails. If considering gameplay what matters isn’t the ‘efficiency’ of those grails, but the results produced by them.

Let’s take Eurayle, fearsome male killer whose anti-male damage at L70 already gives NP5 SSR ST Archers (except Orion) a run for their money. A level 100 Eurayle would be absolute murder on male enemies, but is there a gameplay purpose to a level 100 Eurayle? Are you trying to do something a level 70 Euralye (or even another ungrailed servant) cannot do? I am not even sure if there is a raid quest where a L100 Eurayle can demonstrate the edge of additional stats by oneshotting where a L70 cannot. I have seen solos pushing a L100 Eurayle to the absolute limit, but solos can be done by borrowing a friend’s. CQ minturn doesn’t matter here since Eurayle’s charmlock locks her out of most CQ minturn comps despite her ridiculous damage.

Take another example, Spartacus, the only zerk before Zerkjuna to get 30% battery. Is there a gameplay return to grailing Spartacus? For the most part he hits plenty hard at base level cap, and you will message more damage out of him by levelling his CEs instead of a grail or two. But I can tell you there are indeed instances where a grailed Spartacus can make a gameplay return, a heavily grailed Spartacus+levelled event CE can serve as a makeshift replacement for Mordred/Artoria in farming Lancer nodes such as Gilfest 2018 rotation 1 or Christmas 2019 lotto node. If you care about memeing CQs there will also be scripts for grailed Spartacus. Knowing these returns, then you can decide whether the grail investments are ‘worth it’ from a gameplay standpoint.

In the end, going by this metric actually most grails in this game cannot be meaningfully quantified in a gameplay perspective, hence the common advice to just grail who you like using.

Most would agree that grailing is most optimal for those servants that you enjoy playing + are effective gameplay wise.

If we’re strictly speaking gameplay wise, SRs are the way to go in terms of returns for your grails as many of them can reach SSR stats with 2 grails + gold fous. You can have 5 SRs with SSR stats instead of having 2 lv 100 SSRs. Extra damage you could’ve gotten from 5 grails can be sourced from other mechanics such as CEs and supports. Meanwhile, what doesn’t survive at 15k hp most likely won’t live long even at 16k hp.

In the end, its a matter of priciple. I, for one, gave grails to low star servants such as Bunyan, Arash and Spart (1 grail each) as increasing their damage widens the range of their farming capabilities/supporting capabilities. Arash, for example goes from 20k+ to 30k+ neutral damage and 40k+ to 60k+ effective damage (with max silver fous) which allows a more consistent gameplay result. On the other hand, I’ll never grail something I’ll never use even if I worship the servant just cause I don’t want useless trophies. Raising any servant from 90 to lvl 100 is a sore spot to me as it only increases the servant’s effectivity and not their viability. Most servants utility are the same whether they’re 90 or 100.

Lastly, what servants you have can contribute to your decision. Grailing my Hans in itself to 80 may sound to result in a mediocre survivability to most. But having something like Tamamo, his survivability goes from mediocre to great. His longer staying power magnifies his effectivity with his coming buff.

TLDR: In my opinion, go with Penth over Raikou if you’re looking for minimal grail investment (at least until 90). Also Raikou’s stats are sufficient enough for her role which is farming. Her bossing’s not that great until her crit buff. Even then, she gets outclassed by Junao.

In the end, agree with most to grail who you like but at least make sure you’re going to use them. The only time you disregard the gameplay part is if you only want to look at a pretty number such as 100.

Sorry for the long post.

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