With L.Celica’s Refine/Remix most likely coming next unless they jump over her and L.Edelgard some time after figured do some theory crafting and to make my Fire season even stronger
L.Celica:
Saintly Seraphim
(Upgraded base effect)
Grants Spd+3
If unit initiates combat or is within 2 spaces of an ally, grants Atk/Spd +5 to unit during combat and deals damage = 25% of foe’s Res, including when dealing damage with Special triggered before combat.
(Ignores reductions to Res from Special skills.)
(Eff)
At start of combat, if unit’s HP ≥ 25%, grants Atk/Spd+5 to unit and neutralizes effects that inflict “Special cooldown charge -X” on unit during combat, and Neutralizes “reduces damage by X%” effects from non-Special skills.
Soul of Zofia II
Neutralizes effects that guarantee foe’s follow-up attacks or prevent unit’s follow-up attacks during combat. If unit’s Spd ≥ foes Spd +5 and unit initiates combat, unit can make a follow-up attack before foe can counterattack and unit deals damage = 20% units Spd.
Remix Skill
Most likely will just get Atk/Spd Oath 4, which wouldn’t be that bad since it’s a very good skill of itself.
L.Edelgard
Aymr
(Upgraded base)
Grants Atk +3.
If unit is not adjacent to an ally or foe initiates combat, inflicts Atk/Def -6 on foe during combat and foe cannot make a follow-up attack.
(Eff)
If unit’s HP ≥ 25%, inflicts -6 Atk/Def on foe during combat, deals damage = 20% units Atk, and reduces damage = 20% of units Atk.
Raging Storm II
Grants Special cooldown charge +1 per attack (Only highest value applied. Does not stack.), and restores 7 HP to unit when unit deals damage to foe during combat (triggers even if 0 damage is dealt).
If unit initiates combat, grants another action to unit if unit is not adjacent to an ally after combat. (Once per turn. If a skill that moves unit after combat is used, references unit’s position after that movement occurs.)
If foe uses dragonstone or beast damage and unit is not adjacent to an ally or foe initiates combat, unit makes a guaranteed follow-up attack during combat.
Remix Skill
I can see them going a few ways for her new skill. Atk/Def or Res 4 Ideal (most likely Res since she comes with Atk/Res solo), giving Armor Strides a T4 upgrade… what it’d do idk, or giving her Assault Troops, but if I had to ho with one it’d probably be Atk/Res Ideal.
Celica is looking perfect here, to the point i don’t think IS would give this much. I can see reducing DR by 50% like some other mages. But that’s pretty on point what i want from her.
On the other hand, i don’t like this Edel at all. The healing makes her job as a galefoce initiator harder, she doesn’t have a consistent guaranteed follow-up or brave hits so her damage output is still lacking and even if she would one shot stuff with enough support, her galeforce isn’t consistent without slaying. The only thing i actually like is the breath effect.
Most refines tend to focus more on a units base kit more so than what the typical player uses that unit for, in which Edelgard doesn’t come with Galeforce which is why I went the way I did. I use Galeforce on her just as much as everyone else so I know how it is, but they wouldn’t completely change Raging Storms effect so that she just gets a follow up against everyone, and while yes the healing would effect her Galeforce initiating while running WoM dancers, it’s ment for survivability and it’s an effect that both Brave and Fallen Edelgard got so I full on expect Legendary to get it as well either from her refine or remix. I was thinking about giving her Slaying as well… but then at that point it would just be playing favorites giving her True DR/Damage, Slaying, and CD+1.
There’s a bunch of S!Edel running Glimmer/Bonfire to win against more defensive walls and Bonfire F!Edel has always been a thing. L!Edel will fail to to the same without a slaying even tho she has Bonfire on base. Slaying isn’t just for galeforcing.
L!Marth’s Binding Shield did it, and his remix was more than a year ago. This isn’t unthinkable.
She doesn’t need healing to survivability, S!Edel shows if well. And if we’re going by this argument, she shouldn’t have True DR, no Edelgards have it.
About F!Edel specifically, since her Raging Storm is built-in weapon, she can drop Armored Wall for better offensive/PP builds, L!Edel can’t. Instead of making L!Edel better, this remix is just making L!Edel a worst and less versatile F!Edel.
Damage without follow-up/Brave hits is still pretty lacking. All her effects are reducing foes Atk/Def, her True Dmg won’t be that high. A +10, Atk+, Atk Ideal will get about 16 Dmg from this and she fails to kill enemies by much higher than that, specially with how much DR we have today. DR (she shouldn’t have True DR), Slaying and Breath are all stuff F!Edel has and she’s almost 2 years old, and not to mention, has definitely started aging.
If she ends up getting a refine like this, let me tell in advance, since she can’t be paired with W!Cordelia to make effective use of that true dmg, a brave weapon with Exposure support will still do better for her. Not only hitting 30x2 is better than hitting ~50x1, this can offset the missing slaying effect. And in the end of the day, she’ll still be much weaker than S!Edel in both cases.
And you realize with a CD+1 she’s able to fire off her Bonfire or even an Ignis on her following attack she doesn’t “Have” to have Slaying… not every single unit in the game “Has” to have Slaying on them and its fucking annoying that that’s the trend IS is just going now a days with literally 95% of every new Prf weapon having Slaying. Yes Slaying is one of the strongest base effects sure, but not every damn unit in the game has to come with it.
The thing is is that they also included a requirement for him to trigger it, while still an easy requirement for him, down the line he will lose the chance to trigger it with Spd meta constantly getting higher and higher.
S.Edel also has Brave effect so she doesn’t need to heal as much since she can easily kill the foe before they can even attack. And True DR can only help you so much especially with how powercreep has been going as of late, and the true DR makes her more unique compared to the other Edelgards. And I fail to see how it’s making her a less versatile Fedelgard when it comes to PP, it’s not like Fedelgard can double unless given NFU statues with say Bold Fighter for PP, Fedelgard could easily be ohko’d before she fires off a Bonfire without her DR by a lot of the power house units of today, and even with her DR it only work’s once per phase.
And a +10 +Atk +10 DF with Atk +6 buff L.Nanna gets an extra 17 Damage from her True damage… the only advantage she gets is being able to Attack twice before the foe can counter attack were as unless the foe has offensive NFU or more spd + guarantee follow up she’ll stop their follow up attack (which sure is very common now a days especially thanks to like every Arcane weapon having them), but saying “the true Damage won’t be high” is dumb… what did you want me to give her her… dealing damage = 50% of her Atk or something cuz that’d be even more unrealistic.
This is the biggest problem, you are comparing a unit that almost came out 3 years ago to a unit who only came out a little more than half a year ago who has a button that grants her +6 Attack and bonus Doubler so technically +12 Atk and has a Brave effect built in, of course she’s going to out preform Legendary Edelgard regardless.
Even if I had given L.Edelgard Slaying over the True Damage/DR S.Edelgard would still out perform her in literally every way. Galeforce, S.Edelgard can easily get that ready after the first combat with Heavy Blade. Tanking, S.Edelgard has better bulk over all even if it’s only slightly… but she also has 40% DR on first hit.
S.Edelgard was literally designed to be a better L.Edelgard.
S!Edel: Can proc Glimmer on both her second hit or on her retaliation. With Heavy Blade can proc Bonfire on her second hit or on her second hit on retaliation.
F!Edel: Can proc Bonfire on her retaliation and on her second attack in PP.
L!Edel (with breath and w/o slaying): Can only proc Glimmer on retaliation (not her base kit like you sugested) and can only proc Glimmer on her second attack in PP. Depends on enemy retaliation to proc Bonfire on second hit.
Not having Slaying make her incredibly weaker or unreliable compared to the other two Edels, both for galeforce and for damage specials as their “base kit intend”. If you want to make L!Edel at least as good as the other two, Slaying is one of the effects she needs, otherwise she’s already miles behind. Again, L!Edel is among the weakest legendary, she needs that kind of help.
Just give her one too?? If she at least has a chance to effectively double, it’s already better than the horribly unreliable one we have today. And her effect is already weaker than his. She only gets guaranteed followup, he get’s guaranteed followup + deny foes follow-up + sweep effect.
Why is the weaker version impossible to happen while the 3 in 1 got some of the easiest to meet requirement?
That’s what i’m saying, those two are offensive units, they survive by killing the enemy. The DR is just an extra thing. But L!Edel is among the weakest offensive legendary, her weapon was weak day 1 and easily replaceble by Brave Axe for consistency and damage and said weapon only got better since then,
Wasn’t the point of the healing just because she’s a Edelgard? So now we can go away from the others? So i’ll give up on that terrible healing for a better effect, thanks.
Different from the other 2, F!Edel can be either a initiator or a WoM follow-up/cleanup.
She makes great use os SS4 for spamming DR piecing Bonfires.
Since she isn’t tied to some bullshit solo condition she can be paired to W!Cordelia.
And the eventual double with BF/Beast FU like you said.
One of the reasons it’s easily changeable.
Sure, just give Edelgard enough speed for follow-up + desperation, DR Piercing and deny foes Defensive Special, then they’ll be on the same ground.
Are you really trying to compare a +16 True Damage to a +17x2 that ignores DR/Defensive Special? Not only it’s twice the damage, it’s denying anything which reduces those. Edelgard is hitting once, and is easily reduced by any form of DR, even the bad “reduce damage from foes first hit”, she’ll STILL fail to secure kills. If Edel would to something like 60x1 that’s reduced by all forms of DR, Nanna is doing 62x2 ignoring every kind of DR. Sorry but those two are on completely different worlds.
For the millionth, a followup attack or Brave hit is what she needs. Want to make her different from S!Edel? Give her a consistent follow-up against Summer’s Brave hit, and if instead of giving her EP conditions that’s not even her playstyle you make her PP ones better, she’ll have potential with the likes of W!Cordelia doing guaranteed x4. That’s much better than some 16 extra damage to be reduced by DRs.
I didn’t even put Bonus Doubler on the table.
Anyway, the way you “buffed” her, she’s not even outperforming F!Edel, a unit that is falling out the meta.
The problem with S!Edel isn’t just her offensive, but also how effective she’s defensively. Heck, she’s even among the best far savior, only losing to a few dragon/beasts.
Instead of trying to make her so defensive oriented with True DR and healing, i’d much rather go full on offenses. With the right effects she can do great x4 like i pointed before, with Slaying+Breath she’s already more consistent than S!Edel with Heavy Blade, you can give her piercing power. There’s a lot of ways you can improve her offensive power and make her stand, giving DR and healing while only improving her offense with 20% True Dmg, yes it’s lacking.
You do realize not every damn Legendary/Mythic Refine/Remix is going to push said unit to be better or on par with their future Alts… Ike is a clear look at this, while yes he got Slaying which is one of the biggest things he needed, it didn’t even come close to a fraction of Fallen Ike. Not every unit has to play the same way as all their alts otherwise their’s literally no point of even upgrading L/M units if they already have an alt that plays the same way but better. Why use L.Edelgard when S.Edelgard is just blantly better all around with their default play style.
Something that I’ve brought up plenty of times in the past, you don’t have to always double the foe to win. Just because you double the foe doesn’t = ez win. I’ve had plenty of times where when my unit doubled they lost the fight, but when they don’t double they easily win.
I wasn’t comparing the actual amount of damage, but the True Damage per itself which you said was going to be to low, but yet after inflicting the foe with -12 Def + 16+ True Damage can easily deal with units especially if they don’t have DR themselfs.
And yet you complaining about how she shouldn’t have True DR just because “No other Edelgard has it”. As if Brave Dimitri didn’t do the same exact thing getting True Damage + DR despite none of his other alts having the same said effects. I didn’t say it’d make her completely unique… but more unique with her getting True Dam/DR.
True Damage bypasses normal DR, I can’t remember about DR Special’s, but I know it doesn’t bypass True DR tho.
Edit: Never mind on the True Damage bypassing DR could have sworn it did, I just wasn’t looking at the Hp when I had a lvl 1 Askr fight B.Dimitri (without his weapon) where it said Askr was going to do 3 damage but with Dimitri’s 40% Dr made it only did 2.
That theorycraft for Celica sounds tasty. Making her a mage version of L!Alm would be extremely fitting. I’m not sure, if you should keep the original HP condition on SoZ II as well, but then again she won’t double faster foes anyway (outside of forced follow-ups via L!Lucina and such).
I had a similar idea some weeks ago:
Soul of Zofia II Inflicts Spd -4 on foe and neutralizes effects that guarantee foe’s follow-up attacks or prevent unit’s follow-up attacks during combat. If unit’s Spd ≥ foe’s Spd +5 during combat or if unit’s HP ≤ 75% at start of combat, the following effects occur: If unit initiates combat, unit can make an immidiate follow-up attack. If foe initiates combat, unit attacks first.
No additional true damage, but NFU, desperation and vantage should be overkill enough
Pretty much why I did it… I mean Brave Celica already stolen a weapon exclusive to Alm in their game with a skill exclusive on said weapon, might as well have her follow L.Alm’s refine/remix to a point, while Alm has essentially windsweep built in, Celica has Desperation allowing her to attack twice before her foes.
Ike’s both a DC refine and a unit gave out for free, both things tend to have horrible refines. He’s not the greatest exemple.
Yes, not every remix is giving life to a unit, and if Edelgard gets somehting similar to yours, she’ll remain dead. At this point she’s just a waste of devine dews.
You need to give to give out actual exemple to back up something like this. We live in a meta every new unit has some kind of DR. [1 hit of her + 20% True Damage, getting reduced by DR] How’s she supposed to kill anything remotly bulky with this?
Sure, she isn’t guaranteed to kill even with a second hit, but that’s exactly 100% better than 1 hit. If she can’t kill on 2 hit, 1 hit is even worst.
Than stop right there. Nanna isn’t this offensive threat just because of the True Damage. If she just had the True Dmg wihout all DR Piercing/Defensive deny, she would be MUCH weaker as a unit.
Reducing def doesn’t make her True Dmg better, quite the contrary. If this was Atk bonus, at least it would grant 2~3 more True Dmg.
True Dmg is meant to counter high Def enemies, doing damage even with they have enough def to fully deny your Attack. With lower def, it’s just a glorified bladetome.
My complain is you cherry picking which effect is Edelgard-like and what isn’t. Not only she doesn’t need healing, it gets in her way, it’s a terrible effect for her, but you still want her to have it just because other Edelgards have it. And at the same time, you want her to have True DR just because yes. If there’s room to have new effects, drop that terrible healing for a effect she actually needs.
You say that as if we don’t have a shit ton of units who either have NFU, defensive NFU, and or stops guaranteed follow ups, either on their weapon or Prf skill. Nearly every Arcane Weapon has them, NFU is a seal and now a lot easier to obtain in the B slot.
Until you charge the foes Special and they kill you with their Special, while same thing can be said for her having her second hit, but then you also have to consider Guard, on her PP they have a much higher chance of having Guard than she does.
I never even said that reducing Def increases her True damage and if it was an Atk increase with how most refines being only +5 it only adds 1 extra True damage giving the same amount of damage up till her atk alone doesn’t go through the foes Def.
Ah yes the healing gets in the way of a build/strategy that “WE” the players decided to go with, not what IS went with. You honestly think IS gives 2 shits what we actually want. Edelgard is just as much of a tank as she is an initiator. Giving her a forced Follow Up against every unit will hardly mean anything when 90% of the meta typically runs an effect that just says good bye to the effect in the first place, so how exactly would that help her out over Healing and True DR when most of her foes would just negate it anyways.
The reason Raging Storm even has the Guaranteed follow up against Dragons in the first place is due to it being a move that’s Effective against Dragon’s in 3H and thats the best way to show it in FeH besides just literally giving her Dragon Effectiveness… being able to follow up against Beasts is just an added bonus.
The guaranteed follow-up is meant to double middling speed units like herself or even slower units with follow-up denial effects, units that usually have more bullky.
And NFU B/Seal are only trully useful on slow units with guaranteed effects. B/Seal slots have so many useful option in Dodge/SS4/Bulwark and Bonus Doubler and with the advent of Inf. NFU/Spd Tactic speedy units can get NFU from supports.
Either way her survival is tied to her killing the enemy. 16 True DR won’t save her from Bonfire/Ignis/Vital Astra procs. And again, just that True Dmg isn’t enough to do that.
And by that logic IS would never give out True DR like this.
If we go by “IS meant this” logic, all her effects are tied to solo and/or initiation, she’s clearly build as a initiatior in mind. By the time L!Edel was released we already had a ton of actual tanks with being initiated on effects.
Same way Marth meant to counter dragons only, until they deciced he can get guarateed/denial/sweep against everyone. In the end of the day IS can do anything they want to improve an effect, it doesn’t need to be tied to the original game. Just look at Self-Improver, it’s not even close to Engage one.
IS wouldn’t give out True DR like how… with a way of healing as well cuz I mean just look at Askr, has True Damage and DR and comes with a skill that heals himself after combat. Or giving a unit who in which no other alt of said unit never had True DR Giving True DR cuz we have B.Dimitri to counter that point. Or True Dr based on Atk cuz we just got og.Dimitri to counter that. Or are you referring to the fact that this is a damn “Theory craft” cuz like that’s kinda the point of a damn theory craft, coming up with you own thing.
But that doesn’t leave her out of being a Tank as well, with 39 Def and 36 Res base (pretty good at the time), inflicting -6 Atk on the foe, and preventing foes follow ups. She’s very clearly also a Tank as well.
I never said they couldn’t do what ever they wanted with the skill, again this is a damn theory craft, they could end up making it so she just ohko’s everything if they really wanted to, what they do with it is up to them, this is just how I did it. As for Self-Improver while not even close to how it works in Engage, it is a bit of a combination of his Class exclusive skill as well being able reduce damage by 50% from physical attacks, and while it’s not actual DR, giving him 20 Def definitely does the trick seeing that he can tank physical units with ease. Ofc it wouldn’t be exactly like it is in game… what would be the point of getting a +2 Atk buff when waiting while not initiating combat when we have so much other options that can already do that for him. Look at Boshido for instance +10 crit rate, +2 dam, -2 dam if unit lvl is higher than support ally, while Boshido II for the most part follows this, giving +5 Dam, and 40% Spd Dr, Crit in FeH for the most part is just Specials in which instead of Slaying they gave it Iotes Shield. Hell they even completely reworked Boshido to make it more like how it work in his game since Boshido was originally just the Wo Dao effect.
At the end of the day, regardless if she got True Damage/DR or guaranteed follow up against everything, both effects easily gets counter in the Meta and you are just better off just using S.Edelgard regardless.
That’s kind of untrue specifically because how many units come with it nowadays. Like Yamino said not having Slaying puts any unit at a significant disadvantage compared to similar units who do. Just saying, there’s a reason every arcane weapon so far has had Slaying.
We’ve handled not having Slaying on every single Prf for how long before they just said fuck it “You get Slaying, You get Slaying, EVERYONE gets Slaying”. Yes it’s a strong effect, but that doesn’t mean every single unit has to have it to be a strong unit.
