Lancers Tier List Positioning

Hello!

I have been following Gamepress for quite a bit of time. I have noticed that the Tier 2 is being filled to brim kinda. And almost all lancers have been cluttered to the same tier. I mean isn’t it high time that all of the lancers are kinda re-evaluated and their tiers adjusted? I remember @Sizzle saying the same things some months back but I don’t think it has been followed up till now. Besides the last tierlist changelog was of Salem.

And guys what are your (subjective) views on current lancer positioning? please feel free to share it with me, I would love to know.

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I don’t think it’s necessarily a bad thing if all the 5 star lancers are around the same tier. It likely just means they think they have relatively the same value

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First time poster here so sorry for any mistakes,

I don’t think OP’s problem is limited to only lancers. There are cases where two or more very different servants are in the same tier, for example- drake, achilles and Ivan play very differently despite all of them being AOE, and they are in the same tier. Not trying to question their tier placements, but I think there should be some added clarification with regards to their performance in various elements like farming, cqs etc in the tier list itself. Maybe kind of like the old appmedia list in which cq and farming were two different categories. “Value” after all comes from what a master lacks and considers valuable in his/her roster.
Imo a similar case can be made for the lancers.

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I actually agree with lancer placement overall (except ereshkigal and lancer artoria. Eresh should be higher, lancer artoria should be lower).
Thing is, lancer are a “slightly above mid tier, bit they have no Gil”.
I mean, if we divide the the tier list per class we can talk about that. But a tier 1 lancer in they list would not be as good as a t1 in Archer list.
I mean, no lancer is Gil (ROOOOOOOMA!!) for now.

So, I am fine with no lancer in T1, Simply because the best lancer is not equal to the best Archer/caster/Rider and so on.

To sum it up, not knowing if I was able to express my point.
If we make a full tier list with all servant, no lancer reach the t1.
If we make several class base tier list, a t1 lancer will not be as good as a t1 caster.

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Hello there, Masters,

Since I’m an F2P player, I can’t care much for SSR tier list.

However, I should say I strongly agree that Ereshkigal should be a Tier 1 Lancer (aside form waifu issues) she is just so capable gameplay-wise & saved my ass countless times!

As for SR Tier list, they did fair making Lalter the best SR Lancer (I mean c’mon she’s just so OP)!

Tier lists are usually a joke tbh, as most are based on biases.

Unfortunately Eresh is in the right spot. Despite her full and fluffy skill set, her base damage being so awfully low for a Lancer is a huge hit to her performance.

Her gameplay design is that of a wave-clearing support, but she brings just a tantalizing taste of what’s needed in a premier option. Her party buffs are great, but not enough to shine along with her competition; any SSR support is going to be compared either to the big three (soon to be four) or to someone like Nero Bride, who is better than Eresh at enabling NP refund.

As a DPS she has stiff competition from powerhouse Lancers. The ATK buff attached to her NP in conjunction with her 3 makes her effective ATK good for the duration, but it’s a condition that you don’t have to work with if you simply choose a stronger DPS Lancer to begin with. It takes a lot of whaling to make her NP respectable, though she does synergize incredibly well with Black Grail.

TL;DR: She’s a good unit and a great Swiss Army knife, but her fundamental problem can’t be addressed without a small bag of grails and preferably an NP interlude.

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I try not to pay attention to Tier lists too much. GP heavily favors 3t farming as its basis of Tiering. Which seems silly to me, farming is fairly easy enough you can take almost any group that appropriately leveled and farm maybe not in 3t but i don’t have a full meta lineup and can still 5t farm most things cept the archer raid in this event i was 2t bc i have Karna.

I look instead to the detailed breakdown write up they do to give an idea of what that individual servant’s strengths and weaknesses are. Plus there is a lot to list doesn’t take into account, grailed, foued up to 2k, or NP level.

For example I have NP 1 Fujino , Np 3 Tomoe, and Np 5 Atalante (despite not trying to get any of them except fujino little sad she is np 1 but not a whale so you use what you get, I have just accepted that I am best Husbando to the Archer class at least at 4 stars) If i followed the Tier list based on placement I should be using Fujino but all things being equal Tomoe and atalanta are both mechanically sound and in most cases are going to perform better bc they got that extra damage bump.

I am fine with no lancer being in T1 even though they are my favorite class overall. Lancers are in a great spot in that they have no really bad 5 stars at all. In fact they are probably the balancing stick that should be used for other classes, that they all perform right around the same level and have their own niches should be the goal of game design.

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What makes you think that GP’s Tierlist is biased towards 3T farming? I mean, Skadi isn’t here and you look at the 4* and 5* tierlist and you will see a lot of ST servants without NP Battery or bad refund valued highly.

Appmedia is the one that places super high value on farming efficiency right now. They have stuff like Nitocris and Rider Mordred at the highest spot, they also decided to never give ST servants the highest tier because they can’t farm efficiently :fgo_skadismug:

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They (sensibly) have different rankings based on ST, AOE, Support. At least take a proper look before saying as much, even if you’re correct otherwise where their priorities lie vs GP.

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Oh so just because they are right doesn’t mean they are correct?..(sorry)

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I said they are the ones that value farming over everything else. I didn’t said that was bad thing or that they are wrong. There’s no reason to get defensive :fgo_circereally:

I’m actually familiar with their tierlist, i’m not shitting on them.

Where does that entire first part even come from? I made no comment on how you do or don’t feel about any of the lists, lol. It does’t matter.

My point was, they are separate. App literally cannot “never give ST servants the highest tier” because they’re separate.

They are separated, but i think there’s no ST servant on the SS tier of the ST brach and their reasoning for that is that none of them can farm decently unless raids, so none of them can reach SS.

I think it was something along those lines.

Ah, that whole shebang.

Yeah, I see what you mean, yes, then my apologies for reading the phrasing weirdly since it read as coming off when they did have them all in one pack (IMO, the most coherent, but I digress). Pretty dumb competition in AA + Dantes… though I do recall seeing some Melt and others there wrecking the Apo raids but… :feh_lucyshrug: Like it matters lol.

I will say though to bounce off of this though (and not at you)

If nothing else, for some standard, I think I do recall seeing Sizzle mentioning assuming NP1 all around (although I don’t recall seeing that explicitly mentioned last check if so)? Which could, for example, explain cases that might make people :thinking: in response; unbuffed NP1 Eresh’s damage is just soft if not also glued to a BG for one. For all her tools, that’s pretty notable. Indeed, farming is mentioned, but not as outright being most important, merely a barometer. Either way, point being, “How well and consistently does GP’s listing reflect its own stated inclinations?” That’s the important part, really, more so than numbers on a page.

And re OP: I speculate the update is due for Anni. Skadi, various important buffs, us fully getting into Lostbelt territory. I’d suggest merely waiting, they tend to be busy focusing on stuff like guides and all that will impact a wider base anyway.

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Well, english is not my native language so i sometimes make mistakes reading, Maybe it was something i misunderstood on my head. It happens, don’t mind me :rofl:

I didn’t knew GP’s tierlist assumes everyone is NP1. That’s actually interesting because it’s not that weird to get more than one without whaling just by playing for a long time, at least the 4-stars. Does that mean that NP5 Heracles or NP3 Lancer Alter trascend tier 1?

Grails are also mentioned which is a fair point, but kinda hard to implement on a tierlist. If you Grail a 4-star to 100, you can confidently place it on a 5* list since rarity in FGO is basically an stat cap. Only the TOP 5-star Supports are the exception because there’s no Merlins or Skadis on lower rarities…But then you look at the Lancer Class, for example, and you have 4-star servants with skills and gains that make their 5-star counterparts look bad. It can get even more complex if you consider grailed-max fou’d 5-star (6-star stat range :see_no_evil:) which is probably too much.

I’m typing this before heading off, so if anything seems amiss or unclear, I’ll clarify later:

I went to check to make sure I wasn’t making stuff up, and Sizzle’s on record (multiple times) as saying as much. So yes, NP1 is assumed. I understanding the simple, straightforward reasoning: Not everyone is a whale, the rates suck. Broadest applicability overall.

Personally, I read the list as meant as discretionary rather than rather than prescriptive, and saying this is how things are as simple as that (especially since where SSRs go, they outright call every SSR worth leveling). But that doesn’t necessarily mean they automatically change in ranking, where your second part goes, even though they can. A highly-grailed FSN Cu, and I believe Heracles as well, for example, can both more efficiently solo nodes ungrailed versions could not, if not just have a broader range outright. Never mind Cu (Alter). On a different angle, various Servants like Eresh, Shiki (Saber), Da Vinci, and so on all especially appreciate the NP2 given their otherwise soft NP damage. And if you really want to take someone far as they can go via Fous and Grails, you can push the limit and argue for such-and-such unit ‘deserving’ of such a position.

So that’s what I mean by discretionary, less so “Only raise this Servant” or “These Servants trounce these losers” and more, as mentioned… a comparison tool. All-in-all and assuming you’ve got all the options there, you’re likely going to get the most efficient and practical usage across the spectrum out of raising Merlin before Enkidu, Drake before Shuten, Gil/Tesla/Ishtar before Arjuna (cries), so on; it’s relative and fluid, not all set in stone, because god knows not everyone plays the same or rolls the same.

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I am gonna say this, I think you are evaluing eresh wrong.

First off, her damage.

She actually deal the around the same damage artoria lancer do. Actually a little more.
The problem is she can’t buff her self for the first np, but who cares? She have a 50% battery just for that, so you can np 2 turn in a row.
Sure, karna and lalter do more damage , but neither have thet possibility.
Also eresh can be used to clear the 2 wave before the boss and power buff them.
A karna with 2 carisma from eresh, Merlin, waver and combat suit is going to do serious damage.
Also she have the best internal among lancer with a versatile skill set.

Only thinking about pure damage in w3 is a narrowminded way to look at a servant in my opinion.
Does that mean she have to be above karna because she have a battery? Well no, I just think she is better then the other lancer in t3 who have the same niche.

Also, btw, all lancer are going down 1 tier when roma get released. They dude is incredible.

Yeah, i understand why they use that criteria. It’s simply two ways of analizing the stuff, both are fine.

GP’s assumes you are ultra F2P newbie with horrible luck. Appmedia assumes that everyone is at the same NP Level, if i remember correctly their baseline is NP5 for 4-star and NP2 for 5-star.

Something funny that comes to mind is people complaining because Appmedia use to have the audacity of assuming that everyone had an MLB Kaleidoscope and some servants were rated higher because of their farming performance with that thing on which is a very valid complain for a CE with no Rate Ups ever :rofl:. They agreed with that and now they value higher stuff that doesn’t require it.

I already considered what you mentioned in my initial analysis.

The scenario where Eresh gets to stack her ATK buff like that is specific to NP looping, and the high performance of her battery is already obvious. Doesn’t negate her core issue in all contexts, however.