Loot box bill debacle, will we adapt?

You know im not, i started this to see the opinions of the bill after all :sweat_smile:. Having this in lounge should attract other forumers to this discussion and clutter the other forums less.

It more like a wake-up call to the face telling us that gach a games are a serious problem.

…I basically have no comment about spending money on digital pixel 3-d waifu.

Thanks @Rin!

So, we’re all here. For those that don’t really check in on the Lounge regularly, welcome!

If you’ve only been looking in on one of these threads, take a look at what the other community has been focusing on. Do you think that FEH and FGO are in tangibly different positions? Is the US market in a distinctly different position than FEH’s Belgium-based player base was? Is this bill even something to worry about during the lifespan of these games?

Go nuts, everyone

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FGO’s NA server will have at least two more years of life, I’m not sure how long it would take for a bill like this to pass though. Even if it manages to pass while the game is still running, the devs might have an alternative to the gacha system by then.
You can also still argue if FGO is “pay to win” or if gacha even falls under their blanket “loot box” definition, since currency and servants/craft essences can all be obtained for free.

Directly from the bill:

“19 eases a user’s progression
20 through content otherwise available
21 within the game without the purchase
22 of such transaction”

This is part of the definition of pay-to-win in the bill and pretty clearly includes purchasing gacha rolls in my opinion (in both games). More rolls, especially for higher rarity units, eases progression. You could argue against that, but I think this would be hard to get around.

Yes, I do want to be the ultimate determinate of my destiny. It is the only equitable way of doing things.

Yes, humans are fallible creatures, but I sure as heck trust myself to have my best interests at heart more than Uncle Sam. (We’re also the top life-form on Earth, so we’re really not doing too shabby.)

I agree that the human heart is designed to be led. However, I do not look to the president, or other elected officials for guidance, and I do not see them as some kind of moral entity which I ought to follow or let influence what I believe to be right or wrong. I am all for having coaches, teachers, and for accepting guidance from honest, wise people. I have been blessed to have more than one such figure in my life, and it is a huge blessing indeed. But unfortunately, politicians are seldom honest, and a government is never to be trusted. As it is said, “The price of Liberty is eternal vigilance.”

The founding fathers understood just how dangerous and evil a government is prone to become. Power corrupts, and the tendency is for a government to seize more and more power for itself. They designed the constitution and the government of the United States with this in mind. Checks and balances; reserving the bulk of power for the state governments and the people themselves; and, establishing as the duty of the people to in fact overthrow a government which has become tyrannical. It should always be with extreme caution and vigilance that extra powers are given to a government. Those powers are easy to give, and exceedingly difficult to take back once given.

A representative republic like ours is different than a democracy in that democracy is essentially mob rule - or as I’ve heard it put, two wolves and a lamb deciding what is for lunch. A representative republic is supposed to protect the rights of the minorities too, and not let them simply be trampled by the majority vote. Another reason why the electoral college was created - to protect minority interests. Just as checks and balances were created to prevent any branch of government from rapidly seizing power, as happened in Germany. So, the elected government officials should have a tough time trampling on anyone, even if they represent the will of the majority, and this is by design. Me saying that there is a large difference between representatives and rulers only reinforces this, if anything.

A thing like the holocaust is so utterly terrible. And look at it like this - the worst genocides in history have been so often perpetrated by a tyrannical, evil, power-drunken governments against citizens with no ability to defend themselves. Another reason why the Second Amendment is precious. If the millions of Russians under Stalin, or the millions of Jews under Hitler had had guns, perhaps history could have been different. At the very least, their lives would not be reaped without paying a hefty price of blood. The rightful possession of guns by a people is perhaps the greatest granter of power to its citizens. And this right is all the time under attack and erosion. Go figure.

So yes, I distrust government, as I should if I am wise and have learned from history. I am resistant to most any proposition which would place yet more power into their eagerly awaiting hands. Including gatcha game stuff! (Though I also believe that markets do best when left more or less to their own devices.) I do not trust them, and do not look to them for leadership - they are elected to serve, and should be watched vigilantly.

So yes, bigger and more powerful government is extremely dangerous, and overbearingly powerful governments have repeatedly committed atrocities throughout human history. If there are problems, we should explore other avenues, and should not be quick to let the government extend their power-hungry tendrils into areas of life in which they are not already entrenched. Because of the recognition that governments cannot be trusted, and an understanding of what they have done in the past, they should be watched carefully, and we shouldn’t be quick to ask them to solve solve our issues, i.e., hand them yet more power.

Lastly, I think that the US government was founded with the understanding that God is our spiritual leader. He grants our unalienable rights, and is our moral compass. (“We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights , that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness…”) At least, I think this country was founded on that belief. Personally, I look to Yeshua (Jesus) as my spiritual leader, and my Lord. Thankfully, this is a country where people are free to believe as they see fit. (Another luxury that many countries with controlling governments do not have. Looking at you, Saudi Arabia and similar countries) Other leaders I have in my life are my father, and my teacher, to name a couple. Regardless, I do not think that the elected officials of the government need to or even should fill that role of leader in our hearts.

Don’t leave! We want your excessiveness right here!

I totally agree about the caution part, and it’s something that should always be kept in mind when thinking about government imo.

I guess I differ some, in that I think it’s fine to ask a real-life friend to do this for me, and similarly, I think going to parents or trusted friends in real life for help with things like this (drinking or gatcha) would probably be good.

But the metaphor isn’t exactly the same when the friend analogy is applied to government and society as a whole - because now, I have asked my ‘friend’ (the government) to keep my keys forcibly, (because my judgement is impaired after drinking) but in doing so, I have also given him the right to forcibly take away the keys of every other person that comes to the party, even those who know their limits well and merely want to enjoy some leisure activities. The rights of others are taken away in the process, even if it’s proposed by a willing majority. Why not go to a real-life friend or community for help, rather than advocate that you (and everyone else, by extension) not be allowed to participate in the activity? Even if the activity has its risks, and isn’t wholly benign.

(I’m not meaning you specifically here, just trying to explain the thought :p )

Damn, you really think this stuff out explaining thoroughly with examples. The more i read everyones opinion about our stituation, the more i feel that this bill better fail at least at the half way point from being passed. This could work as a scare tactic to a good amount of the game developers that do these microtransactions at an excessive amount, but only time will tell…

If they ban “mobile gambling”, then I guess I’ll just find something else to get addicted to.

Outright banning gacha games seems way too extreme to me, so I hope the bill doesn’t pass as is. However, I’m all for addressing the real problems caused by these games. More restrictions for purchases by minors could help.

I also think most gacha games could take a note from other apps that allow outright betting, such as draft Kings. They need to more actively try to prevent some of the extreme horror stories we have of players going into debt, spending thousands on these games. So I’d like to see some options that can allow a player to set caps on their spending ahead of time, before the impulse hits. And also some links to resources that could be useful for dealing with addiction.

Other apps already do this. It wouldn’t be hard to implement, and shouldn’t cut into overall revenue by much, but could potentially help prevent more gacha addict horror stories.

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That may be your opinion, but p2w is officially defined as “spending money makes the game easier”, which is undeniably true in FGO.

Obviously you cannot compare someone who has less time IRL to someone who has a lot of free time. But spending money means that even people with less time can do stuff faster and more efficiently. This is not limited to completing events faster, but they also simply get the resources to farm more faster, thus raise servants faster, etc. You’re basically trading money for time, which is how pay-to-win commonly works. Between two people with equal time investment, someone who doesn’t invest money on top will never catch up to the one who does so. There does not need to be a direct competition between players to be able to measure that a spending player simply gets more stuff and gets it faster.

If you want a more concrete example in FGO beyond the “having more servants” I mentioned: whales have more materials since they can spend their SQ on refills and thus farm more, they have more limited materials like Crystallized Lores because they get a bunch of excess rare prisms to spend on them, they finish events and empty shops faster because they have gacha CEs and bonus servants for events that f2p may not have, and thus get more AP to spend on other farming.

In the end, it doesn’t matter how we players conceive the game to be. The bill clearly defines what it targets, and FGO falls straight into it. If it gets through, there’s no way for FGO to avoid it no matter how f2p friendly it is compared to other gacha games that have merciless powercreep and pvp, because gacha is inherently pay2win unless the stuff you get from it is 100% cosmetic… and no gacha game does that.

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yes the real problem is the potential addiction for the minor, fight against addiction is rather hard to implement I think,there is just to see the addiction of the smoker or alcoholic

a miner who likes gambling can potentially become addicted to other gambling in the futur ( casino etc)

drops feh, takes up drinking

What if I already drink too much scotch and also play FEH and FGO? What’s next on the list?

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Alcohol poisoning

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I can’t get addicted to that. I need the next addition. Maybe I’ll pick up one of the other games on this site

Cocaine. Alcohol and drug addiction go hand in hand like a married couple.

I don’t think the bill will pass anytime soon. I’d think government has bigger things to do. But if it does come to pass it probably will take a long time to implement. FGO and FEH could be finished by the time it goes into effect.

In the worse case scenario… both companies could close down both games and come out with ‘new’ games that have the rules of the bill implemented. Basically games that are both FEH and FGO in all, but name. Would be nice if our saved data from the previous app could be brought over and used in the new app, but I doubt the either company would look into that. If it is even possible.

Or both companies shut their games down and keep it in their home country. Personally I think some type of age restriction or in-game warning before pulling for units would be enough, but when it comes to children’s safety everything else has to adjust to accommodate it regardless how ludicrous it is.

I find it more likely that they’ll modify the existing games rather than come out with other games to work around new laws.

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Glad i see someone else on the internet care or even know about the uSA’s Constitution (sic).

But i digress. There’s only so much we the consume can do when it’s the game company we need to worry about catering to the Governments whims. It’s by their hand that decides whether a business will succeed or fail, and that same government is at the mercy of the Federal Reserve Bank. If they aren’t heavy handed in their handling of the situation like with Waco and a whole other host of things you won’t see on the mainstream media since they’re so far whored out to the money holders it might as well just be a 1984 Situation. Big Brother is most certainly watching.

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