Merge Time: The useful Jaegan's [POll]

It should be noted that some like to break down the Jagen archetype into two sub categories being pure Jagens (good early game but tend to fall off late game) and Oifeys (usually not as strong early on compared to pure Jagens but also tend not to fall off later as much). Of course this will probably depend on who you ask, just thought I’d throw it out there.

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I’ll go ahead and just say Titania is the best of the best.
Her growth rates are without equal in the paladin Jaegen department. She often scales off better than both Kieran and Oscar in both of the Tellius games.

Seth’s very good too but all cavaliers in FE8 end up a better paladin than him.

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Marcus and Zelot are pretty clutch until Arcadia, especially on HM, Marcus makes Chapter 4 much less frustrating and they both are clutch in Chapter 7, both of which are by far the hardest chapters aside Arcadia (with many considering C7 to be even harder than Arcadia). The fact that they have lower stats is also helpful for setting-up kills for your weaker units, unlike Seth or Titania who just one-round everything early-game.

And after Arcadia you get Percival who is basically a late-game viable version of the two of them.

Unlike other games which give you one dedicated Jagen, this game gives you 3 all good for a different part of the game: Marcus is early game and Zelot is early/middle game and for what they’re supposed to do they’re more than good enough. They’ll never break the game in two like Seth or Titania do but that does not make them bad, early game usually is the hardest part of many Fire Emblem titles and that alone makes them good, it’s no coincidence that many tier lists have Marcus and Zelot very high up.

Also the fact that FE8 and FE9 are much easier games than FE6 HM doesn’t help either.

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Percival is definitely in a different archetype than the Jaegan.

Also, I once literally tried save scumming arena grinding Marcus and Zelot, except it was impossible. Even with me picking their battles extremely carefully, they could not win. It was not possible. When they did level up, they barely got any stats, if at all.

There is a difference between a useful unit and a good unit, which is the crux of this issue. On hard or lunatic mode, Jaegan’s are indispensable parts of your early game team, and are practically necessary to complete chapters.

But that does not make them good, which is what your arguments have been resting on. Their stats and growths are objectively terrible, making them bad units. They may be needed in the early game, and extremely useful to have around, but that still does not make them objectively good units (it may make them objectively good picks for teams, due to the need for a powerhouse in early chapters, but again, not good units themselves)

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Being able to get you through arguably the hardest sections of the game does make them good. The very fact that they are necessary to get through the early game suggests so. Their overall contribution still is higher than many of your other units and that is what’s very important when rating a unit.

While they do fall off with their lower growths they are still guaranteed to make a major contribution in the hardest sections of the game while growth/unpromoted units rely on RNG for necessary growths for their stats to be high (when compared to late-game) and are nowhere near as good earlier on. Not to mention training many of them is tedious and requires investment (Stat boosters, promotion items, good equipment, setting up kills etc.) for them to pay-off, while Jagens are guaranteed to do their jobs at no cost and no rng-reliance whatsover. Some growth units like Roy, Lilina, Wendy, Ogier, the 4 unpromoted cavs, Lot/Wade, Sophia etc. will end up with higher stats on average than Jagens and pre-promotes and can contribute late-on but you also have to consider that many of them will suck or at the very least not be as useful for a long time. Not everybody is HM Rutger, Miledy, Percival etc.

Does being able to one-round Idunn (Roy), one shot some dragons with legendary weapons, kill a strong boss/generic etc. alone make you a better unit overall?

Saying that only stats and growths make a unit good, ignores what Jagen-types can do. Of course there are characters with such high bases that are guaranteed to contribute even late on, but that does not apply to most of the cast.

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Again, you have not answered or even touched upon my main argument: being useful (critical even, in a hard mode run) does not make a unit good.

“Good” is an objective criteria that is defined by unit stats and growths. And most Jaegans don’t have those.

“Useful” is a somewhat subjective category about how useful a unit is in the game. Jaegans are extremely useful in the early game. I have never denied that, and even agree with it. This makes them exceptionally useful. But, and this has been my point all along that you have never refuted, being useful is not the same thing as being good.

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You just said the same thing as before. If you can’t actually come up with anything else to say in defense of your point then I’d say your argument isn’t very good then.

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:feh_annettehug:

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Good is not only defined by stats and growths. There is no “objective” definition of good in fact. Usefulness is not a seperate category, but also a metric of how good a unit is. If only stats mattered then Athos and Karel (FE6) would be the best unit in their respective games for example.

In most cases what defines good is (imo):

  • Bases
  • Growths
  • Avaiablity
  • Investment cost
  • Weapon Ranks
  • Movement type
  • Overall Contribution

Jagens have good bases for the start and the mid-game. Before most of your cast actually gets a good stat growth and promotes, Jagen will be ahead for a long time and as a result will end up contributing more for a long time. Their good stats let them kill dangerous enemies and set-up kills early/mid-game which is valueable.

Jagens have bad growths, I can’t deny that. But again, that is not the point of the archetype.

As it always is with the archetype, Jagens have perfect avaiablity which means they can help you right from the get-go and are always there for you early and mid-game.

Not only that many of them have 2 or 3 weapon types that they can use, with often at least two of them being at a high rank letting them use Silver and Killer weapons from the get-go (meaning you don’t have to grind their weapon ranks) while a lot of the other units need to raise their weapon ranks. A silver weapon will outdamage a unit even if that other unit has higher strength for example.

They tend to be mounted granting them maximum movement, which is not only useful for combat but it’s also very useful for utility, rescue-dropping is always very useful and especially so early on when many of your units are frail. Not only that but their movement actually gives them a niche, with exactly that role later on with no promotion item required.

I’ve already talked about the early and mid-game contirbution earlier.

For example:

FE6 Marcus has good bases for his join time and his archetype and they hold up through early and mid game , he has perfect avaiablity, can use good weapons right from the start to either kill a dangerous enemy or set-up kills and with 8 movement and a mount he can see much more action that infantry units and cavaliers and he’s very useful for rescue-dropping and he always retains that niche even if his combat will not be ideal later on.

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Let’s talk about the bad Jaegans.

Their stats drop off extremely early, becoming barely usable just before mid-game starts. Ideally you wouldn’t want to even be using them then, due to XP requirements.

Speaking of XP, let’s talk about that. A Jaegan, as we have established, is going to be more or less useless late game. That means any XP you give them is a waste. Of course, you do have to use them (especially on hard mode) or risk dying, but a Jaegan, in order to be optimal, actually needs to do the minimal amount of work possible while still protecting the team.

That’s part of what the strategy of some hard mode runs is, balancing Jaegan kills with other units.

Why am I saying all this? Because if you actively have to avoid getting kills with a unit, that’s another sure sign they aren’t a good unit.

There are indeed other things than pure stats that make a unit good (i.e., even though healers can’t attack early game, you do need one), but even adding in other factors, Jaegens still aren’t very good.

They have a lot of advantages (move, weapon type, etc.) because they need every single one of those advantages in order not to be literally unusable, but even with them they aren’t “good.”

They never will be more than a necessity, in order to advance in the game (on harder difficulties; you can choose to never use them on easier ones) and act as a crutch for new/bad players. Even with everything they have going for them (in spite of it too, thanks to their stats) they will never be better than mediocre, and usually are just bad (again, this is why Titania and Seth are also so notable)

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The way I see it, if a unit isn’t useful for the majority of the game then I wouldn’t really call them very good. Even if they are useful early game.

Like a basic ass iron sword and armor in [INSERT GENERIC RPG HERE] may be useful and get me by in the early game but that doesn’t make it good.

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I mean…kinda, yeah. Athos is given so that you literally can’t lose the final boss if you haven’t levelled you lords or anything, and other situations. He absolutely is the best unit in the game, even if you only have him for 1.5 chapters.

No lack of availability changes the sheer amount of power and ability he has.

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No. Being good only in earlygame (and maybe midgame) is a major boon over being average the whole game because earlygame is when most units are very bad because they need training and levels under their belt. The Jagen faciliates an emergency button so you could save someone you’re training because you got them caught up in a jam that they might not survive if the Jagen isn’t there to kill of a dangerous unit and/or shielding them from being taken. The Jagen can with the right weapons easily weaken an enemy so that the unit you train can kill them in one hit or otherwise massively reduce the amount of hits needed (and also damage taken) to do so. In early chapters with timed objectives (or side objectives) like Bandits rushing to destroy villages and other objectives like this, the Jagen, being in a promoted class (and often of the horse riding variety) is often the only unit on your team that is capable of beating them there and secure the goods for your forces, letting you get new party members, good items early, statboosters, and so on; resulting indirectly in a stronger army for the battles ahead that otherwise would have been much harder to achieve. By the time they fall off, their contributions have made the units you’ve trained by then have a much easier midgame and lategame due to the resources they’ve enabled you to have.

To say that if a unit isn’t useful for the majority of the game means they are bad might technically be correct on paper, but in practice you will find that not all games are created equal; earlygame in Fire Emblem is the hardest part of any Fire Emblem game because they are always designed where most of the units you get have no contribution at all until the requisite leveling and training are put into them. Thus, when most games also give you a unit that is able to contribute right off the bat, it doesn’t matter that they fall off after earlygame is done. By then; your other units who they helped create easier and safer opportunities for investing into will have it pay off… and that is thanks to the Jagen, no matter if they are pure or otherwise.

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Again, you have not addressed the main issue, which is that while extremely useful (which no one is denying), Jaegans are terrible units.

Part of the reason Jaegans are so useful is precisely because they suck as units. You don’t need to worry about leveling them (you aren’t gonna use them after like chapter 5/6), you don’t need to give them weapons (shouldn’t see enough combat to break even a single weapon), and so on.

Often in early game, they cannot kill enemies. As you mentioned this is great for training up weaker units, but that’s a big red mark against the Jaegan unit that fails to kill.

Jaegans are deliberately made to be bad units, so that they can do the exact job they are intended to do.

That job may be critically important in a hard mode run of FE, but that doesn’t mean they are good units.

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I disagree actually. A Jagen with a good weapon during earlygame (which happens more often than you think since the Jagen is often the only one who has exclusive access to your higher rank weapons for a while) can often be the difference between restarting and keeping the game going when you absolutely need to complete a task and/or kill an enemy stone-cold dead. There might be a few additional casualties, but new training opportunities come early and often with the Jagen anyways.

Again, that job ensures your earlygame units get the opportunities they need to get strong enough to start making actual contributions to your army. Oftentimes a resource (like higher rank weapons) that is spent by the Jagen is a winning trade since the Jagen is as mentioned often the only unit strong enough to tank and kill earlygame. This often translates to better-but-timed resource gains in the earlygame which speeds up how strong you can get your other units, which pays off dividends during the mid-to-lategame.

They are deliberately made to be bad stat growth-wise, but a Jagen has stat bases far above any other unit in the earlygame, and this subsequently make them into good units because it means you have a unit who is capable of doing things your other units can’t in the earlygame because, regardless of their actual stats compared to similiarly leveled units, Jagens come pretrained and ready to contribute in earlygame hell right off the bat.

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Chadmond

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LOL.

I’ll confess, I didn’t read all that, but I lean towards separating “usefulness” and “being good”, not that I care that much. For example, in PoR I disarmed Titania and positioned her in a choke point to control the battlefield, I did that a lot. She almost never attacked, only in dire circumstances, so I dropped her after some time as she never gained stats, there’s better people for that. But I can say I used her, she definitely is useful as I couldn’t make it without her, but in the long run she wasn’t a part of my team. After the growths, there’s better people for the latter chapters.

At the same time I can see why she is “good” because of it. No one else can do that in the early game… so whatever, really.

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I mean, you’re right…

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Being useful and being good often go together in Fire Emblem, both because having good bases for their join time beats having high growth rates and because earlygame Fire Emblem is the biggest hurdle to clear.