Multiple % down debuffs

Sorry if it’s been asked before, but my search of the forums seems to be failing me. I’m looking at how to really wreck bosses with Arts damage and stacking up buffs and debuffs. For the most part I get it, but the damage formula is confusing me on one point.

“Percentage Defense or Resistance down debuffs and Physical or Arts Damage Taken Increases are multiplicative to each other, which means each one you add makes all the others more effective.”

I feel like I may be looking at it wrong, because to me it seems like it would make them less effective when multiplying percentages under 100%. To use an example I’ll have once I get Ifrit E2’d:

Let’s say I have an enemy in Ifrit’s range for RES -40%. Eyjafjalla hits it with her E2M3 for -25%, and I pop Pramanix’s E2M3 for -30%.

If these are additive, which other things with a + or - in front are, this would make RES -95% (RES * (1 - 0.4 - 0.25 - 0.3)), for a total of 5% of their original. Theoretically with another debuff over 5% their RES would go into the negatives, though I kind of doubt it can.

If they’re multiplicative, which the damage formula guide seems to be saying, it would be 1 x 0.6 x 0.75 x 0.7 (RES * (1- 0.4) * (1 - 0.25) * (1 - 0.3)), bringing them to 31.5% of their original. This would make each subsequent debuff less effective unless I completely misread how the formula works.

Anyone able to clarify this for me?

Total = 100% = 100
Neglected child = -40% = 60% = 60
Hellspawn= -25% = 75% = 75
Fluff= -30% = 70% = 70

Neglected child & Hellspawn = 25% of 60 = 15 = 45% of total
Hellspawn & Fluff = 30% of 75 = 22.5 = 52.5% of total
Fluff & Neglected Child= 40% of 70 = 28 = 42% of total

NC, HS & F = 30% of 45 = 13.5 = 31.5
HS, F & NC = 40% of 52.5 = 21 = 31.5
F, NC & HS + 25% of 42=10.5 = 31.5

The combined debuff is 68.5%.
The 31.5% figure is what is remaining from the original total. 100 - 68.5 = 31.5

You’re right, they are less effective each time but they still increase the debuff, making each debuff more effective when combined (Words, Maths, English, are all terrible at explaining this sentence).

Additive percentages are why Ptilopsis refuses cake:
ptilopsis

Additive percentages don’t exist in game outside of the 6* pity system, forget about them, this is the best we get.

Ifrit’s S3M3 is a different story though.

Say the enemy has 60 res. S3M3 Ifrit takes 20 of that away straight up.
Then you apply your percentages to the 40 that is left.
31.5% of 40 = 12.6
compared to 31.5% of 60 = 18.9

Smal percentages maybe, but dead is dead and alive costs you sanity

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I hope i could help with these examples.

GP


scalingResDown=1-([(1-x1)*****(1-xi)]) with i = number of consequences debuff res and xi the debuffs

1/ computing the scalingResDown used in the second formula

In your case:
Ifrit -40%, Eija -25%, Pram -30%

So the scalingResDown= 1-[(1-40/100) * (1-25/100) * (1-30/100)
=1-(0.6 * 0.75 * 0.7)=1 - 0.375= 0.685

Damage

2/ using the scalinResDown with damage(based on attack of the operator)

finalDamage= ATK*[ 1- (Res+flatResDown)*(1-ScalingResDown)/100]*ArtDmgTakenUp

In your case flatResDown is 0
ArtDmgTakenUp is 1 (no bonus to damage)
The formula is simplified just to comprehend the debuffs impact

finalDamage=ATK * [ 1- Res * (1-ScalingResDown)/100]

We will keep the same values as before:
/an operator with an atk of 100
/a target with a res of 60
/in your case finalDamage= 100*[1-60 * 0685]

As you can see it’s confusing because we compute the remaining damage or resistance:

example:
/operator atk=100
/target res = 60 or 60%
/so the final damage is the remaining after 60% of resistance apply.
The remaining damage after 60% of deduction is 40
finalDamage= 100*(1-60/100)=100*40/100=40

And they apply this method with the debuff on the resistance of the target.
The target has 60 resistance( 60%)
Your scalingResDown is 68.5% or 0.685
So the final resistance of the target is 60*(1-0.685)=18.9% or if you prefer we apply 68.5 % of penalty on his Res(60) and after we compute the damage with the remaining res

Some consequences:
a/ A target will never drop below 0 resistance

b/ Better is the scalingResDown better is the resistance reduction

c/ The scalingResDown formula is scalingResDown=1-([(1-x1)*****(1-xi)])
You can see this as the percentage of the resistance that remains on the target after the effect of all the debufs
If you have 0 debuf, the scalingResDown will be 1 and his resistance will not change
If you have debuffs :
Let’s see ifrit alone:
scalingResDown= 1-40/100 =60% of his resistance will remain your case the target have 60
consequently 60% of 60 =36 is the remaining res of the target
Eija alone:
ScalingResDown =1-25/100=75% of the target resistance will remains
consequently 75% of 60 is 60*75/100=45

If you use the two scalingResDown one after the other you will have the same result
i take the target resistance after Ifrit debuff, 60% of 60 remains so 36
and afterwards i use Eija debuff, 75% of the 36 is 27

It’s the same as using directly the formula:
scalingResDown= 1-(1-40/100 ) * (1-25 / 100)=1-(0.6 * 0.75)=1-0.45=0.55
and you can see that 60 * 0.55=27

They might be trying to say that each type of debuff you add makes the others more effective?
Like if you debuff their res, then you’re doing more damage, then the damage taken increase has more to work with.
Idk.

Imagine if Pity Stacked Multiplicatively :eyes:

What’s the difference between Ifrit removing 44% RES with her Talent, and removing 20 RES with S3? I thought RES was always calculated in percentages

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I think the 20 RES reduction on S3 is flat, while talent removes RES by percentages.
An enemy with 50 RES will be reduced to 30 RES with S3, but her talent will reduce it to 56% of 50 instead, making it 28 RES. Assuming both are applied to the same enemy, the flat reduction would be applied first then the multiplicative ones.
If I remember correctly, Meteorite’s S2 also apply flat DEF reduction debuff.
ED: Calculation error fixed.

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Additive is better trust me.

Agi’s right about Ifrit.
Basically the flat debuffs reduce the starting total before you start applying the %s

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I meant that as a bad thing

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