A 50% NP charge for farming is by itself incredibly powerful, especially for SR Servants which tend to become plentiful in a Master’s roster as time goes on. We haven’t actually had a discussion on this so far - so we’ll see that one pans out.
I’ll try to address the entire situation in one go regarding Jeanne. A few aspects come together into one, but one elephant in the room - having the tier list be one cohesive list - is one that is becoming more and more limiting. Having everything in one overview is nice, but specialists are starting to become rather constricted in the format. Either way, I want to get those arrows in first, and we’ll see what we can do.
The core of the Jeanne conundrum is not one she deals with alone, but echoes of it can be seen across different Servants and their placement as well. The Tier list is one in which we consider more optimized usages of the Servant, rather than pure flexibility (although it is appreciated). Servants like Heracles and Cu Chulainn I actually don’t consider that strong as they are placed in the tier lists. Their performance once Masters have expanded their roster is much more limited and at high-end their performance is not as powerful as many others. A survival niche is nice, but how often is that actually used in more competent set ups or soloing?
Still, they remain in their placements because they offer great value for starting players.
So, then we come to Jeanne, a specialist for stalling and survival in the hardest content. We had this discussion before (here), but clearing a Challenge Quest isn’t the end all be all for placements. Stalling for hours and hours leads to success, but I would hardly call that a good performance. In fact, Servants who excel at Challenge Quest performance should both succeed in the content (obviously) and do it cleanly in a timely manner. Thus, slow, ponderous performance from a Tier List that looks at performance is not a point in her favour. That she doesn’t contribute to any role other than clearing hard content (which only arrives a few times per month), is also less than ideal.
There’s one more issue as well in that Challenge Quest performance, if I am being utterly truthful here and in my opinion, is that we overrate its importance. As might have been noticed in some of the video links already, many of them can in fact be soloed by a friend Servant at NP1 (i.e. you don’t need anything), while others have specific Servants or solutions that negate its difficulty. In that sense, just looking at “being able to clear Challenge Quests” as the highest benchmark in a Servant’s performance is not quite right. From an optimization point of view (which Tier Lists tend to be), the best Servants clear fast as well.
So, let’s then look at what Jeanne does in terms of actually clearing Challenge Quests. Do we need Jeanne to clear them or can they be cleared without her. It just so happens that we can look into the next 2 years and note what we’ll be facing. We don’t have to go entirely by “potential” performance alone - we can be utilitarian and assess when she ought to be used.
There are a few quests in which she does exceedingly well (like the Salter one), and the upcoming Nero Fest will have a Challenge with Da Vinci in which she does shine (even if Da Vinci can Pierce Invincibility if you’re not careful with timing). I even think she’ll be good for the Challenge Quest for Rashomon. But tempo is a big issue in the hardest ones, and there are quite a few Challenge Quests where enemies use Pierce Invincibility or have Instant Death to counter Jeanne. If Masters do not kill certain adds in time, or if Masters cannot burst down enemies in a moment their defenses are down, the Challenge Quest just becomes harder rather than easier (such as the Spartacus one, Arash, Arjuna/Karna, or even the First Hassan one (although I think she’s decent for that)). The following year also contains many Challenge Quests with odd gimmicks that make stalling incredibly difficult, random and just plain harder to pull off (Midrash Caster, MHXA, Leonidas).
It doesn’t help that there are many hard quests where Masters have spawns to kill that need to die quickly or otherwise they strip your defenses, or cause other nasty effects. There are also hard bosses coming that strip buffs pre-NP, remove all buffs on hit, and so on.
All of the above together is also noted in just how often Jeanne is actually used by myself over the years I now own her. Undoubtedly she has helped me quite a bit for some particular Challenge Quests (she IS tier 2 after all), but if you look at her usage in aggregate over the course of that time it’s really rather slim, especially compared to Tamamo who is arguably rather similar in when you actually take her out (apart from if you like to farm with Arts).
Just to reflect on this comment in particular - the notion that the measure of success is just clearing the content is not one that is correct (in my eyes anyway) for FGO. The game isn’t hard enough for that, simply put.
That’s why for the gameplay fanatics it’s all about farming speed, and why the best CQ performances are actually based on “racing” Challenge Quests (i.e. minimal turns per CQ). We don’t take that approach, but it is important to know.
It’s very similar (if I recall correctly you played WoW) to DPS and HPS performance.
Just going to add my opinion here.
As a disclaimer, there are quite a few ratings that I disagree with on the tier list in general, but it’s not an easy issue to solve because people value different aspects of servants based on what level they play at, their playstyle and what aspects of a servant they actually consider the most important to have. But I’m not going to argue about other servants now, since the discussion is centered around the tier shifts due to the recent SQs and Interludes.
For Jeanne specifically: I completely agree with her placement in Tier 2, especially relative to other servants in tiers 1 and 2. Jeanne is the number one survival support and unmatched in that role, she basically makes you immortal if she is put in a team that she can arts chain with. But that is also literally the only thing she does. Her skills are completely garbage for an SSR, all of her power is consolidated in that NP, and while said NP is ludicrously powerful for what it does, I can’t consider a servant tier 1 if they excel at literally one single thing and are objectively inferior to most other options, including in lower tiers, for everything else.
Just compare with the other tier 1 servants: Gilgamesh is arguably the best AoE DPS against servants in the game, thus he can both smash farming and challenge quests with his damage output, consistency and flexibility. Jack is both the best star gen and the best offensive Assassin in the game, plus she has additional utility in a low cooldown heal, enemy buff removal and female-killer damage which, again, allows her to be fielded in basically any scenario and do a good job at it, more than basically any other Assassin. Tamamo is THE Arts support, nothing else compares to her in that regard, I think there’s no need to further discuss this. The list goes on, I’m not gonna explain for every one of these why they deserve Tier 1 (I actually disagree on Musashi and Quetz here, but eh, that’s not the point of the discussion).
None of these servants have such a galring weakness that makes them basically useless outside of the one niche that they are extremely specialized in and the best choice for, like Jeanne does.
In my entire time of playing FGO I haven’t used Jeanne beyond my first two weeks of having both a limited support selection and not knowing about how much using class advantage helps in speeding up quest clears. While she is an extremely reliable crutch that anyone can use to clear whatever challenge quest (provided they have the patience for it…), simply adapting to said quest allows you to pick way more optimal choices that get the job done a lot faster with the same minimal risk. Basically, Jeanne is never the best choice for anything even if she works well in a lot of situations (again, provided you actually don’t mind taking 50-100 turns instead of 10-20).
Tier 2’s description is
Strong Servants with great potential. Typically they have some weaknesses that can be readily compensated for by supports. Against the right opponents or with the right composition, their specializations will outperform higher tier Servants.
This fits Jeanne perfectly, in my opinion. She definitely has her own niche (spammable team invulnerability + healing to a level no other servant can match), but said niche is not so exceptionally needed in this game because it’s fundamentally… not hard at all. Why pick Jeanne if I can pick “insert specialized DPS and a combination of Mash/Merlin/Waver/Tama here” and clear the quest in a fraction of the time with the same minimal risk? Sure, this is not an option for everyone and that’s when Jeanne shines as the generalized crutch, but that’s why Tier 2 is perfectly fitting for her imo.
Quick note on Astolfo: Tier 2 is fine for him too imo. He’s essentially 4* Drake after his upgrades minus her ability to do damage and generate stars and NP outside of the usual battery -> nuke -> quest over farming, but that’s comparing a 4* and a 5* after all, so he’d be totally fine in tier 2 imo, if only for the sheer novelty of a 50% battery on a 4*.
Siegfried can charge his NP significantly faster than Salter and a high-ranking Disengage is incredibly valuable. Even outside the anti-dragon niche, it just seems like Sieg has a lot more going on over her.
Then again, maybe I don’t value raw offensive power as much as most people.
Neither really should be used for sustained damage either way unless you want to slam some dragons with Siegfried. Even then, Salter’s high base attack is at least rather good for cleaning up and facecarding. Salter is listed that highly (and her Rider version) for her ability to obliterate a single wave of enemies with a powerful NP.
reeeee making me waste data to scroll through all that jeanne convos
SMH, but tldr
she should be tier 2, tier 1s are basically what i define as
DW wtf were you smoking servants that they release once every half a year, to make that gameplay money,(which is why i would exclude the riders and musashi)
right This is what im interested in
right the main thesis oif my argument is just gonna be this
5, NON SSR servants, who are
50% np charge
have a def ignoring np
and an np interlude
decent 3 hit evade tied to it
why does the 3 hit matter, at this point if you’re bringing astolfo for that evade, you’re using him wrong,
post buff and even more so now, his specialty is 3 turn farming setups,(maybe 4-5 turn if you dont have mlb kscpe)
but the skill it’s applied to still has a huge 8 turn cooldown at max level
why does it matter, again its like saying helena shouldnt be tier 2(or was she 1 rip), she has shite skills cause of high CD even tho thats not how you use her If you just plan on using it for farming
which is especially bad when you consider how unreliable the other effects attached to it are in practice.
it gets increased to 5 turn with a 3 turn cd, thats not even that bad and again, you’ll never use those effects in practice
Doesn’t help that there are 6 turn cooldowns to skills that offer either a 50% charge to NP or something like 20%-30% to NP gauge but with a buff alongside it
main point, name me non SSR servants, 5 of them with
the criteria i listed
Hes the ONLY SR servant(to my memory anyways)
with a 50% np charge, def ignoring np and an interlude
and the only rider with over 30% np charge, beside columbus and drake
columbus is story locked and drake is an ssr
50% is literally the difference between a less than 5 turn farming strat
and taking over 5 turn
how can anyone who actually played thru this game thru CCC and saw farming hell
astolfo isnt a good servant when he could literally cut down the entire farming by 3-4 turns effectively
If they buffed his other two skills to be more than just crappy versions of Medusa’s skills that fix his other flaws like mediocre damage output and utility that’s more than an unreliable stun which also has a huge 8 turn cooldown
you know who else has shite skills but is effectively in the higher tiers?
and lancelot on jp
As someone who greatly values 3turn farming himself: so much yes. I have Drake, so I won’t have any need for Astolfo, but I use Drake so much all the time… she is basically a farming queen, as is anyone with a 50% battery interluded AoE NP, bonus points if they have good steroids in their kits (in Ishtar’s case they are so powerful they make her punch way above her interlude-less weight). Any of those servants belongs into Tier 2 at least by default if you ask me.
But that’s the problem of a generalized tier list like this, because some people may not value 3turn farming as much, and nobody can deny that Astolfo will still suck outside of those - if the tier list was split between farming and hard content, he’d be tier 1 in farming and tier 5 in hard content basically.
i never expected to get drake, and i have astolfo levled so er
still gonna default to astolfo for 3 turning o7
but ^ basically
only reason to ever not need astolfo, is if you have drake
or are a high functioning whale with like 2 mlbkscope
Why not both?
cost for one
taught u meant putting them on the same team
but the actual reason, at least for me would jsut be
farming for rider gems is literal hell in non lotteries cause of their drop rates
and that fcking dragon in wave 2,
o7 completely understand why no one would want to farm for them and thus not lvl another rider skill if they have one who can do the role just fine
My 10/10/10 max bond helena is now ready to receive the tier 2 crown
Err should be 100 if not for qp hell
Farming Rider Gems isn’t a big issue though. The APD isn’t so bad (100) and gold Rider mobs are very common in events.
let me wallow in self pity that i still dont have a good assassin nor AE mmk
fck rider mobs
also this is where i agree to disagree with that APD,
during 1/2 training grounds, (i forgot which one)
spend 280 ap on 40 ap obviously
got 0 gold gems, .-.
also another beef with training grounds
i usually bring a team of 2 aoes and 1 st(for marie since the 20k mob can be easily killed)
and the game always spawns the goddamn dragon instead of aoe mobs
and when i bring an st, it spawns the aoe mob
dont get me started on rider mobs in event, whom for some reason, have higher hp
and you;re basically using servants who deal 0.9 damage, and have quicks as their main cards against them
all of these could be solved if i had fcking gramps, shuten, cleo or AEs but well
This isn’t how drop rates work nor a good sample size at all. The drop rates are based on 10’s of thousands of runs - this stuff averages out over time.
If we take anecdotes as data we run into real problems on how to approach farming.
My first thought was—why not move Tamamo up if your reason for keeping Jeanne in Tier 2 is because Tamamo is Tier 1?
But, as someone who used Jeanne for the hardest Camelot fights + Super Salter and hasn’t used her since, I totally agree. She was a godsend when I got her a month or so into my account. Now that I have a maxed Mash, a near-maxed Tamamo, a Waver, support Merlins, and better CEs for faster clears, I rarely ever bring her out. I maxed her stun and I don’t think I’ve used her since.
(She would have been great for hard mode Kiara with this upgrade, though.)
Glad to see Astolfo is getting some love. I can’t wait for that battery. Astolfo + Kiara will be soooooo handy for that caster node in UmuFest. Cannot wait.
A little disappointed re:Serenity—how do you think her upcoming skill upgrade changes her usefulness?
k fair enough .-.
gonna trust the math then
if after this node, peeps still dont appericate astolfo
im giving up
A little disappointed re:Serenity—how do you think her upcoming skill upgrade changes her usefulness?
Not particularly, she just doesn’t fulfill a very valuable role - and DoT effects just aren’t very useful I’m afraid. I’m sure enthusiasts can get some use out of her though, she’s not that bad after all. .
I will abandon all of my friends if I’m not rolling in FP after that node
My kscope Astolfo would have to be used