Organizing my AR-O tanks

I’m trying to figure out which units I’m going to put on which seasons. See also my thread on a 4th merge project which I expect to use either on offense or defense. Figuring out my 4th merge project Anything that I haven’t already built is up for reconsideration, so I welcome your ideas.

I’m looking to build 2-3 teams per season (the other teams will be for player phase strategies), including the following:

  • a NFU tank, presumably with pulse smoke…and probably ranged so that I can activate it more easily. Covering with near save seems ok to me. Will be the default enemy phase play if firesweepers/dazzling healers don’t appear.
  • a team to fight cavalry squeezes, involving NCD and probably multiple tanks.

Units I have:

  • Nowi+10 +spd. She’s definitely going on light season; I’m only wavering between NFU (probably the correct play given Bramimond) and 300SP stance + NCD + QR
  • B.Ike with +spd and enough copies to merge to +5. Thinking of holding one copy in case breath 4 gets released
  • 2 separate (live, not manuals) copies of B.Lucina
  • Eir+5 with +atk, so I try to include her on my light teams (but fun > score as long as I don’t fall out of the vault)
  • A separate live copy of Eir with +spd, so I can switch her IV or run an alternate build (ex: one Eir is on temari and the other is not)

Other units I have:

  • B.Hector with +res and enough copies to merge to +2, but I’m thinking of throwing him on defense with far save
  • V.Gustav +atk -spd, also thinking of making him defend with far save
  • V.Henriette +res -def, to whom I foddered a steady stance 4: probably foddering her at some point, but I’ve also thought of switching back to DD4+raven.
  • Tethys with +HP (likely going on a galeforce team; temari really helps secure doubles and heavy blade activations)
  • The AHR N.Lyn
  • H.Xane, and planning to give him NFU + CC as my contribution for PoL

Units I plan to get:

  • Echidna+10. I’m late to this party but she’s still good and looks forward to a refine. Been thinking of using her as a NFU galeforcer on astra, actually. If I leave 2 defenders alive she has a very decent try at surviving.
  • Plumeria
  • F.Lyon probably
  • Guinivere probably
  • maybe W.Altina? Don’t think I have the orbs.
  • maybe Flayn
  • B.Edelgard sooner or later (I could use my CYL4 pick but greens are easier to summon so I’ve been thinking of saving it for one of the others)
  • B.Micaiah sooner or later (could use my CYL3 pick, but same thing as Edelgard plus I want ground orders fodder)

Units I do NOT have and probably won’t get:

  • Altina. Wasn’t here when she was given out; don’t find her more worth my orbs than competing interests.
  • Resplendents. I’ve actually considered spending recently because I feel like they’ve been quite generous, first with the anniversary and 4* specials and a free forma soul and other benefits, then doubling up the colours on the Valentine Askran banner and on two permanent pool banners (Annand + Azelle, Ingrid + Marianne; all had good fodder options if you wanted to go for that), and now another forma soul through celestial stones. But I’m definitely not decided.

Resources I have:

  • diversity of fodder. I have multiple options for DC; I have a Julian for close foil + lull atk/spd; I can fodder CC twice; I have a M.Azurcorrin, L.Alm manual, and some extra Shamirs I can use for NFU; I have a Plegian bow;
  • I’m sitting on about 3700 grails but I want to merge something that will score well enough in arena to get me into AA top 3k and preferably something that I can use to take Fae off my arena core. (My current core: Nowi, Fae, Felicia with C duel, but Felicia has the only 300SP skill on the team.)
  • Enough stones to toss for multiple dew refines
  • About 150 fruits

Current draft:

Overview:

Demand for tanks: 2 for a zero-effort end turn team for each season, 4-6 for multi-tank teams vs cavalry squeezes which may include the previous two. Total: 4-8
Tanks with undetermined B-slots (3-4): Nowi (light only), B.Ike (+B.Lucina), some speedy ranged tank like Norne/Gangrel/Brunnya (and possibly a second)
NCD tanks (specifically for cavalry squeezes): F.Lyon, Micaiah (astra probably)
Other tanks specifically for cavalry squeezes: Raigh 4*+10? (hermit tome good; probably astra)
F.Lyon should go on the season where B.Ike doesn’t. I don’t want too much of one colour on the same team or even on the same season, really.

On B.Ike I lean towards NCD + QR because forced doubles are likely to run into 80% reduction except during light/dark when Bramimond regularly uses hardy bearing specifically to deal with B.Ike. So maybe he should go to astra, where he’s also better than F.Lyon against the entire lineup of defense mythics (unless you want F.Lyon to bait Mira into attacking? She’s probably doing 5 dmg against Lyon but likely not against B.Ike).

Then we would get this:
Light: Nowi (NFU), F.Lyon (NCD+QR), maybe another ranged tank (NFU for Bramimond) to be covered by a near save with Lyon
Astra: B.Ike (NCD), probably Gangrel/Norne (NFU) because B.Lucina (if not then probably Brunnya), Micaiah (NCD).

Need to keep an eye on who’s using the QR seal and possibly the mystic boost seal.

@xchan what do you do with your B.Ike and F.Lyon, and what do you think about sending my low-merge B.Hector to defense?

Light:

Nowi tanks everything:
  1. Nowi
  2. Peony
  3. Dagr because free extra stats
  4. Mila
  5. Maybe Emmeryn with rapport wand, spd/res gap, and sudden panic? I have a single copy with +HP
  6. Eir with temari? Probably not because I’m keeping sabotage atk on Mila. So keep her on whatever build I want to use on another team probably?

I kind of wanted M.Corrin to support Nowi. Maybe it’s unnecessary? I’ve done just fine without him even without Dagr. But it was more because my opponents weren’t defending well than because my setup is good.

Playing against firesweep
  1. Dagr (after tanks bait on turn 1, galeforce on turn 2? I already plan to have her on galeforce)
  2. F.Lyon
  3. Freyja? (will probably also be on galeforce, but I expect her to survive one attacker in most cases if I need to let her get hit) or bonus mythic
  4. Peony
  5. Eir, I think?
  6. Nowi? Guinivere when I get her? Other ranged tank?

Astra:

Main ranged carry
  1. Reginn
  2. Naga because I have her and more def
  3. Plumeria when I get her
  4. Brunnya/Gangrel/Norne/etc.
  5. M.Corrin or B.Lucina or near save
  6. bonus unit or…healer?
When getting squeezed

Reginn and Naga will take the first two slots on all teams. (Probably Naga even after I get Plumeria, but possibly not. Extra def and anti-Seiros/Duma is helpful. But beyond that, there are a few different ways this can be done

Option 1:
3. Brunnya/Gangrel/Norne
4. B.Ike
5. B.Lucina
6. Micaiah, bonus unit, refresher, or healer

Option 2:
3. Brunnya
4. Near save armour
5. refresher
6. bonus unit or healer or…?

Other considerations:

  • Does F.Lyon really need some kind of guard when he has 50% reduction and a raven effect backed by over 30 def? I was thinking of giving him DD4. If he needs it then he’s probably getting the Osian manual in codes in a few months. I probably need to claim the ground orders from B.Fjorm first.

Thanks for your help!

2 Likes

Thanks for the shout out. I read your other thread but haven’t been able to comment on it yet. I will use this threat to address both if you don’t mind.

You won’t be able to reach top 3k with your core and only 1 new unit. You should be looking for at least 2 new units and be willing to hunt down T4 duel skills. Out of all the options, I’m going to talk about those I would recommend for AR-O tanking, which are WFelix, Brunnya and Jorge. Imma separate this by musts and maybes and I will talk about team synergies at the end.

MUSTS

Suggested units

Far Save tank. The current meta revolves around turn 1 shennanigans. Dancer traps, healer traps, rally traps, pathfinder traps, cavlines, etc. Against those teams you need to either be able to completely take them on turn one with a PP team (think DuoLyn) or be able to tank the onslaught. The best way to do the later is to rely on a Far Save tank. Fyi, I favor OHKO on retaliation over mixed phase potential, so units like Tikis or BEphraim are not considered. Candidates (in order of relevancy):

  • BHector: He is kinda broken. Even at just low merges, he will outperform almost every other armor unit in the game. Recommended build is Special Fighter with either Bonfire and Sol. I preffer +atk as I run Sol on him, but +res is his second best IVs (best for the Bonfire build).
  • Gustav: He can do pretty similar stuff than Hector. Both have slaying weapons that debuff the oponents and can run Special Fighter for breath + guard + instant Bonfire/Sol. He trades armor effective inmunity and guaranteed follow-ups for 75% Damage Reduction. The trade off seems worth it, but since Duo Lif is a thing now, BHector should take priority.
  • Henriette: People are relying on green windsweep powerhouses to counter Far Save BHector. Henriette being a mage is a great counter to that strategy, so having her as a back up Far Saver might prove worth it in the future. Having no prf weapon hurts her a lot and so does not being able to run SF + Bonfire to OHKO in retaliation. Still, she is pretty tanky and if windsweep becomes more common, she will become pretty useful. Keep her (asuming you have the means to give BHector Far Save).
  • Duo Idunn: Same reasoning as Henriette, except she has a prf weapon with a slaying effect, which allows her to run the same SF + Bonfire/Sol build than Hector and Gustav. She also has a win button that makes her (and Nowi) inmune to effective damage and does well against DuoLif and Phytons. She gets extra points on AR - D for being a Duo unit. Only reason she is below Henriette is that I’m not sure you have her.
  • Faye/WFelix/PRaphael: Spendthrift Bow + DD4 + SF + Far Save can make any of those pretty tanky. Faye has the best stats but she is a 5* exclusive. Raphael is a nice alternative and so does WFelix. They can also be used on AR - D with Reinder Bow and Bold Fighter.
  • Nagi: She can run the same SF + Bonfire build than the other melee Far Savers, can also bypass windsweep and does have AoE DR. Effective damage can be her doom though (and she can’t be used on defense).
  • Hector/VHector/Sothis: Damage + healing specials are pretty fun (who deosn’t love BClaude/Duofonse?) but them being red makes DuoLif a hard counter.
  • VRudolf: Same Slaying + SF + Bonfire potencial with build in WF, but weak resistance and no way to mitigate effective damage.
  • BEdelgard: Movement I guess.
  • Other armors: lack of slaying prf really hurts them. Then can run Far Save, but I wouldn’t recommend them over any of the other units listed.

Near Save tank. Same reasoning as the Far Save tank, but slightly less relevant due to ranged threats being more common on AR-D. Still I think it’s a must have due to dancer and lunge traps. Candidates (in order of relevancy):

  • Gustav: Slaying + SF + Bonfire + DR + lack of DC prf skill makes him the top Near Saver. He tanks can even tank common red threats like Kempf and Eliwood without losing a sweat. Just be aware of Odd Tempest BCelicas at full health.
  • BHector: He performs better as a Far Save tank due to his prf DC skill, but he can also double as a Near Saver if needed.
  • Hector/VHector/WSothis: Not having to counter DuoLif means we can have fun!!!
  • Duo Idunn/VRudolf: Bonfire eveyone (sustain is less needed as they can run an actual A slot).
  • BEdelgard: Movement I guess.
  • Nagi: Bad idea.
  • Other melee armors: lack of slaying prf really hurts them, but they are slightly above the ranged units because of the free A slot.
  • Henriette/Faye/WFelix/PRaphael/other ranged armors: Bad idea II.

NCD tank. Like I mentioned before, sweep skills can counter your saves, so it’s worth it to invest on a NCD tank to help them on certain situations. My recommended build is 2 CD special (Ruptured Sky/Noontime) a Stance (preferable one that increases atk) + NCD + Joint Drive Atk + Mythic Boost/QR. Candidates (in order of relevancy):

  • Micaiah: Effective damage and natural QR puts her above the other NCD users since the most common sweepers are cav units.
  • WAltina: I’m having a hard time deciding if she should be number 1, 2 or 5 in this list. She can outperform most of the NCD tanks thanks to her blade weapon + prf special + Vantage win button, but she is vulnerable to Duo Hindrance and can be OHKO’d if not careful due to the lack of DR. Still, when things work out she can absolutely destroy.
  • FLyon: DR + AoE mitigation + Weapon advantadge over colorless units. What’s not to like? Just an fyi, from my playtime with him, he absolutely needs a stance on A and the QR seal.
  • Kiria: This might seem controversial, but she has been outperforming my FLyon due to her ability to OHKO units on retaliation thanks to the extra 7 atk (+ the Ruptured Sky and JDA I was able to snatch on her HoF). I gravitate towards her over Lyon as my NCD tank for that reason but also because she offers support capabilities (tanks get extra +6 to their defenses) and can PP if needed to (while FLyon struggles hard with that). The only reason she is lower than him is because I assume a Flyon with the same investment would outperform her.
  • Norne: Guard/Spendthrift/Reindeer Bow allow archers to be great ranged tanks. Norne being colorless and a 4* makes her a great contender for the NCD role if the previous options are not available.
  • BIke: With access to DR in her weapon, BIke is an interesting contender for the NCD tank role. However, Bramm can hard counter him while running this build, making him a lot less reliably on Light seasons.
  • Nowi/Fae: Since you mentioned them, Imma mention them here. Dragons are great units for NCD due to their ability to hit the lowest defensive stat, access to DC weapons (Nowi having a prf one) and well rounded stats. However, they struggle to OHKO in retaliation (at least without the QR seal) which might make or break a tank. A +spd Nowi will also be vulnerable to Bramm on Light and Thrasir on Astra, which is not good.
  • Honorable mention FIke: When there are debuffs around (or shrines/panic), he can become a monster that can even outperform the optimal WAltina.

MAYBES

Suggested units

Non-Save tanks. Since the introduction of Saves, the need for an omnitank has been highly reduced. Still, there are certain instances were having saves might be punished (for example against IP teams with many AoEs). Having the option to switch to a different approach to prevent the Saviors to be overpoweres might come in handy. Candidates (in order of relevancy):

  • BIke: NFU allows BIke to survive Bram and other impact users. His DR is insane and if you can get his resplandent alt, he can reach pretty decent amounts of spd were naturally doubling is possible. There’s a reason why AR-D hates seeing him. He is better used on Light season where he can access to res and spd buffs from Mythics.
  • Brunnya: Her pretty decent stats + debuff negation makes her an increadible sturdy tank. NFU is one of her best B skills, but she can also run Lulls pretty decently. She favors Astra season.
  • HMyhrr: BIke showed us how unconditional DR was good. Unlike him (and Brunnya), she doesn’t have access to infrantry tools as them which makes her slightly less versatile.
  • BClaude: sustained tanking is pretty fun, but might be unreliable against some defenses. Still, when pulled right, they can get away with impressive stuff. BClaude places slightly above DuoFonse because of him being colorless.
  • Duofonse: Same sustained tanking as BClaude, but vulnerable to duo hindrance and high damaging greens.
  • HGrimaF: Same sustained tanking strategy as BClaude, except vulnerable to reds.
  • Ayra: the queen of speed is back with a veangance. Her refine makes her a pretty awesome mixed phase unit that can take even the most menacing threats. Worth considering if you like that playstyle.
  • Other spd demons: DR B skills allow for some speedy units to tank surprising stuff. They also have strong PP potential, but can be tricky to use (against spd units and DuoLif).
  • Kronya: The queen of Vantage strats. She has lost momentum because of Far Save strats making it hard for her to reliably chip away units.
  • Tanky melee units: I guess tanky melee units are now more viable than before due to Far Saviors protecting them from ranged threats. There are interesting options if you want to try that like Mordecai, Groom Hinata or NY Keaton and such.

Supports. Support units can make or break a tank. They can allow them to get away with stuff that couldn’t be achieved by themselves. However, with the ability to run 4 mythics on offense, I feel myself gravitating towards running no supports at all. Still, here are some candidates to consider (in order of relevancy):

  • Jorge: Probably another controversial pick, but Jorge is to the best support unit right now. He can buff all my units independent of their weapon type and he does so for the stats that matter the most to them (+5/+0/+5/+5), as they are slow tanks. He is a ranged unit which helps getting the pots/breaking structures and as an infantry unit (who can be easily merged), he can expand his support capabilities by running Even Pulse Tie.
  • BLucina: BLucina is probably the best support unit in the game thanks to her special reduction + drive stats (+3/+3/+3/+3); however she only works with melee units, which make her slightly worse than Jorge in some situations. Depending on your teams, she will most likely be the first support pick (for example with BIke, BClaude, Norne or WAltina), while for others (like Gustav or BHector who doesn’t enjoy the extra speed at all and doesn’t need the cooldown reduction as much or when running mage units) she will perform worse than Jorge (or Bownoka). Even with that in mind, she is well worth investing. Similar to Jorge, she can run EPT which puts her above Hinoka.
  • Bow Hinoka: Hinoka can buff the most stats of any support unit. She naturally gives +8/+8/+4/+4 and unlike her infantry counterparts, she can run a rein skill for extra buffs potential. However, as a flier she can’t run Even Pulse Tie, which I highly value over the extra stats since saviors can’t run Pulse Tie and NCD tanks don’t make great use of it (because cavs that attack them are not adjacent to anyone). For non-save tanks, she is the best.
  • Flayn: I already stablished before that unconditional DR is good. However, Flayn’s weapon effect has diminishing returns the higher the stats the tanks can reach. There’s a point were the damage she reduces is not that impressive, and Hinoka or Jorge would have achieves better results. She also doesn’t sinergizes that well with units that have their own DR (like Gustav, BIke, Micaiah or FLyon). Being a healer gives her a plus, while being a flier takes it away. If her weapon worked against AoE, she would have been on top, but as is, she feels a little bit underwhelming in most situations.
  • BFjorm: Isolation might be good in some situations. I don’t like to rely on it (I rather make sure my tank can take on all the threats) nor I think she makes a good support (no EPT access) because of it, but I know others consider her a must have.
  • MCorrin: MCorrin used to be an amazing support unit (and in some sense he still is). I highly invested on him (+10, JDA, EPT, Spurrn) and for a while he was glued to BHector. However, as I moved away from omnitanking and went well into double tanking, he stopped being as useful (and now I’m even considering foddering him to Jorge, as I don’t have extra JDA/EPT). His reliance on ally support makes him not as flexible as the other units, and BowHinoka kinda surpasses him right now. Still, as an infantry he has the advantadge of running EPT over her (and Clive/Mathilda).
  • NY Velouria: Velouria has the potential to be BLucina’s counterpart for magic units. However, like MCorrin, she can only buff one unit at a time. She at least can also run EPT.
  • Clive/Mathilda: Same as MCorrin, but worse.
  • Dancers/healers: They do stuff that helps allies, so there’s that.

Mythics: Finally, I’ll give some thought about the mythics we’ve got so far:

  • Dagr/Reginn: Must have units. They open the 6th unit offensive spot, which means free +5HP + 3atk or 5res for out tanks. Both are also great units with movement shennanigans that can be exploited to our favour.
  • Eir: +5 res is pretty vital for most of the tanks, but also, she can be used to snipe structures, passive heal your tanks and disarm traps (the bolt trap is really scary, and depending on the placement, it can make formations difficult).
  • Mila/Naga: +5 def is pretty good, but slightly worst than res in most situations. Still, both units offer some extra support with isolation, extra turn and extra stats on light and effective against dragons on astra.
  • Peony/Plumeria: I’m not a fan of dancers on EP strategies, and they both give +spd, which isn’t ideal either for most of them, but their prf dances do help with the overall strategy and they can help get the pots in time. You should probably go for them if you want to also invest in PP.
  • Freyja/Altina: as much as I love giving my tanks extra attack, the units themselves don’t offer anything to the team. Once more mythics are available, I doubt Imma use them. I’m sure someone out there is able to use them as secondary or third tanks, but I’m not that confident.

TEAM DISCUSION

Since you mentioned your limited availability of mythics, I’m going to assume a team composition of 2 Mythics + 1 bonus unit + 2 tanks + 1 support. It might make things slighly harder than I’m used to, but the strategies should still work. The first two teams are a must have in my opinion, the other two are more of a fun option you can choose depending on your needs.

Suggested team compositions

Double Save team + Support I already explain why Saves are a must have in my opinion. So what’s better than one save? Two saves!! Running both Saviors at the same time gives your team full coverage and also allows for them to be even more specialized. Since you don’t run as many mythics as I would recommend on an optimal set up, running a support unit is key.

  • Far Save BHector + Near Save Gustav + Jorge (Astra)/BLucina (Light): This team is for overall use. It’s the mindless end turn strategy that will get you far without having to think. Like mentioned on the previous BHector and Gustav would me my first choice of Saviors. They are slightly above the other options and since we get 3 blessings each season, I’m fine reblessing them (they are also used on defense btw). Jorge is their for Astra as you will get extra +atk from Reginn, which when capitilized with Jorge buffs allows for more reliable OHKO. OHKO are very important there because of the lack of +res mythic buffs. That leaves BLucina/BowHinoka for Light.
  • Far Save BHector + Micaiah (Astra)/FLyon (Light) + Jorge (Astra)/BLucina (Light): This team is meant to counter cavlines and teams with only/mostly ranged units. The NCD tank is possitioned outside of the Far Savior and in range of the sweeper, while everyone else is protected by the Savior. Micaiah is better on Astra because of her high natural res and high OHKO potential. That leaves FLyon/Norne/Kiria/WAltina for light. If you went with BLucina as support, then WAltina and Norne might be the best option of the 4.
  • Near Save Gustav + Micaiah (Astra)/FLyon (Light) + Jorge (Astra)/BLucina (Light): This team is meant to counter mixed times with sweepers. Those kind of defense run some form of counter nullification (Kempf, Flash+, sweep skills), but also have a mix of ranged and close threats. Against this teams you want to put the NCD tank upfront, protected by the Near tank (who is also protecting everyone else). It’s a combination of the other two teams, so same units.
  • Brunnya (Astra)/BIke (Light) + Jorge (Astra)/BLucina (Light) + BFjorm (Astra)/BowHinoka (Light): This is more of a fun team to use where tanking is still the main strategy, but it’s not as mindless. It works best against teams with only 1 dancer (BFjorm/Mila), trapped units (you can control who attacks who and when) or an easy way to block your opponents movement (so no need to protect the supports). BIke is best on Light to make use of your BLucina, while Brunnya gets buffed by Jorge. She might need extra sources of speed, so if you don’t run BowHinoka or Flayn are also nice alternatives to Jorge (if you don’t use them somewhere else). BFjorm is needed there to provide isolation.
  • Duofonse (Astra)/BClaude (Light) + Jorge (Astra)/BLucina (Light) + BFjorm (Astra)/BowHinoka (Light): Another fun strat that relies on sustain tanking (healing back the damage received). BClaude wants to be used on Light season for the extra speed and access to BLucina, while Duofonse prefers OHKOing in Astra with Jorge attack buffs. Flayn can be used to help both teams as they are not as tanky as the savior tanks.
    This last 2 strats can also be used with a secondary tank instead of the secondary support unit (Near Save Gustav for Brunnya and Far Save BHector for BIke for example).

SUMMARY

I would invest on Far Save BHector as a Far Save tank, keep Gustav as a Near Save tank, invest on Micaiah and FLyon as a NCD tanks (with Norne and WAltina as alternate options), BIke, Brunnya, BClaude and/or Duofonse as fun tanks (you don’t have to choose them all), and Jorge, BLucina, BFjorm and BowHinoka as supports. The least investments would be: BHector with Far Save and Special Fighter (Astra and Light), Gustav as is or with Special Fighter (Astra and Light), Micaiah (Astra) and FLyon (Light) with a Stance A skill + NCD + Joint Drive Attack (Norne can be a good alternative for Light in case you don’t have FLyon. She would need Reindeer or Spendthrift bow + DD4/Stance A skill) + Jorge (Astra) and BLucina (Light) with Even Pulse Tie and Joint Drive Attack/Joint Drive Speed.

As you can see, Joint Drive Attack is the most wanted skill. Tanks should take priority over supports, as the later can run normal drives, while the former have less optimal options (atk smoke and pulse smoke are ok, but can be pretty hit or miss).

I would forget about Nowi sadly (I also have her at +10, but she isn’t what she used to be).

2 Likes

From my time using F!Lyon, guard wasn’t that important; especially since you’re using him for cav line. You should focus more on one shotting opponents so his base Null C, lull or SS would likely be better.

I’m going to comment on some of the units you have. I can comment on the rest of the post later, when I have more time.


Nowi
For Light, she does need NFU. I generally prefer double Solo builds on tanks like Nowi so they can be mixed phase, but a premium stance is a good choice.
Eir
She can be great for Bright Shrine soaking if you incorporate a high Spd/Atk unit in one of your Light teams. I do prefer Peony-stacking though, instead of Eir-stackin, but I can see the value.
B!Hector and V!Gustav
I think they should both be on offense teams if you lack carries, since it's always better to focus on offense than defense given the choice. Hector's a great tank for either Near or Far Save, Gustav has been doing wonders for me as a Near Save tank, covering my Brunnya.

If you have to have one of them in defense, I’d vote for Hector with Far Save. He’s much more annoying to deal with. Refine + Bold Fighter makes him a mixed phase powerhouse. Gustav can be dealt with by baiting him.


V!Henriette
She's pretty good as an anti-cavline unit. Be careful with units like Rein and blue tome Selena. I'm surprised at the number of Henriettes my cavline has killed, but that's in Astra, where there are no Res mythics.
Ninja Lyn
She's too good, I always feel dirty when I use her. Near-perfect hit and run unit.... or, well, more like hit hit hit hit hit unit. She can be used with her default kit + Death Blow, or double Savage Blow. I highly recommend Disarm Trap for her, but she also works with Windsweep vs Far Save tanks.

Great for whatever season. I have one for Light, and another for Astra. If you only have one, I say go for Astra.

Does F.Lyon really need some kind of guard when he has 50% reduction and a raven effect backed by over 30 def?

Honestly yes. I’m actually a bit wary of running DD4, because I worry Thrasir will just hit him, then get danced, and either kill him or just get him to super low HP. (Depending on investment on Thrasir and support on F!Lyon, he may not one shot. It’s unreliable enough to be a pretty big problem). I was having that problem for quite a while, and running MS3 definitely increased his performance by quite a bit. And yeah he needs guard tbh, because Thrasir will charge special if he doesn’t one shot, brave bow deadeye will still hit him pretty hard, and units that double him still pose a huge threat, when they charge a special offense while doing so.

3 Likes

As always, I enjoy discussing with you, and here I really appreciate the in-depth explanation of your playstyle. Let me start with a few general things:

I’m agreed with you when it comes to one-shots being a pretty good playstyle (maybe decreasingly so as we see more of the S.Mia/W.Bernie type DR). I opt for it on B.Hector myself, and it’s how I would prefer to play with Gustav. I only have one SF fodder so it’s going to whichever of the two ends up on defense (probably Gustav; I feel like the 75% reduction is harder to deal with than B.Hector and people are more prepared for Hector because he’s more common and people aren’t expecting an instant bonfire out of Gustav.

First, I’m trying to focus on player phase strategies. I’m probably using my other feathers to merge galeforcers, at least one for light (Dagr will be the second) and two for astra. If I had 11 copies of Echidna I wouldn’t have made the other thread. I don’t see Plumeria being optional for me, and Mira is not optional for obvious reasons. Triandra I could conceivably do without because I could consider some kind of setup where M.Eldigan is the only refresher (and build him to resist Mila), but I’d much rather have her. I do have two copies of Sara.

Second, I think there are a few aspects of my approach to the game that your playstyle doesn’t really fit into. For one, I’m pretty sure what I find rewarding is investing heavily into characters and then using them, which creates a bias toward tanks I can merge. Related is that I like building units and strategies, which means I don’t really like saving 3 months of orbs to merge even someone like B.Hector. B.Ike I can consider because I already have enough copies for +4 or +5 and he’s green and on the 4%s which means mathematically I can expect to finish the merge with under 2 months of orbs. I like B.Hector a lot, but what he gets out of 8 more merges doesn’t seem to me worth that many orbs. I’d rather merge some new legendary if I had to use the same orbs to merge something. The last consideration is that I enjoy labouring to protect my support units and saves feel a little too cheap in the immediate state of the game. Of course, I don’t enjoy getting overwhelmed, but if it happens infrequently I consider that the price to be paid. It’s nice they gave us escape ladders. Now, if in several months we find ourselves in a situation where it’s almost impossible to play without saves? That will be a different game, and one in which I’ll probably be content to use saves. This timing will become relevant in the next point or two.

Currently, I’m not sold on chasing saves for a lot of reasons. Most obvious one is that I’m planning to spend my next 2-3 months of orbs mostly on 8%s. You can find a list of my targets here Shamir IVs and managing NFU fodder So I’m stuck with the two Valentine saves I have unless I fodder Henriette, and I want to incorporate far save on defenses because it makes player phase strategies brutally difficult (but if I manage to get W.Bernie that probably alleviates one season because I can just put Sara in the 7th slot and attack?).

But let’s suppose I aim for saves several months from now, when the game has adapted to be a lot more save-dependent and I have some orbs I can use for this purpose. Firstly, I only need 1-2 saves per season. Maybe I use Brunnya with a near saver. Can’t I just complete the team with Naga + Plumeria + Reginn + support/extra Reginn? On light season unless a Naga tome appears (or in some cases even if one does) I’m not convinced that I can’t simply win by inflating stats with Dagr + Eir + Mila/Freyja + Peony, spectrum buffing using rapport wand + spd/res gap (maybe the Emmeryn sudden panic setup I described above; Mordecai is also an idea) and dancing and smiting Nowi in. I would probably use NFU since Brami will always be a problem and firesweepers may or may not. But I’m pretty convinced by this ranged tank + near save combo. Maybe I would attempt it also on light season with Norne because I have atk/def unity fodder and I can just inflate her res with Dagr+Eir. (And again, rapport wand would be really good because she won’t care about panic.) Or maybe I would use F.Lyon unmerged. I expect IS to charge less for near save than for far save because far save is obviously the stronger of the two and we already have near save on a permanent pool green.

All of that aside, is there a reason I cannot throw two units forward, either of whom can tank the entire defense, maybe even side-by-side (AR-O with bonds on non-saves?!), and use them as a shield behind which support units and chill/sabotage mythics hide? (Or a funny solution might be to use an obstruct seal. Then I could block four columns with two units. It sounds so amusing I’m going to look into it.) I’ve even thought about some kind of V-formation double-and-a-half tank with B.Lucina slightly behind two units. Probably during light season to patch her res, and I would give her, like, close call + kestrel stance from the Say’ri codes manual? Point being that if something hits her from range, she’ll survive and we can kill them on player phase, and they block the square so she won’t get attacked again. Also, she’s way far back, so far that the attacking unit is out of dance range, and since no retaliation, there’s no WoM for dancers. But more likely is two tanks, the second tank one square left or right and one square back, the two tanks hiding a support unit, and position them far enough forward for the mythics to hide.

Now to a few details:

  • TMFM looked at my core and said if I go 175+ BST I probably get into top 3k in AA. You’re saying I’m not even close. Is the difference between 4k and 3k in AA really that large? I’m ranking consistently better than 4.5k using a pair-up legendary and matching blessings on the core.
  • Isn’t WF Hinoka only effective against melee units unless using far save? Otherwise she just gets picked off by some ranged unit.
  • B.Lucina works on daggers and bows, which means Norne gains a bit of value here.
  • I actually have all the light mythics. On astra I’m currently stuck with Naga and Reginn
  • Brami is not a big problem for Nowi if she uses NFU.
  • Just to reiterate, I’m leaning towards astra for B.Ike because better against anima mythics than light mythics and Brami is commonly assigned to anti-Bike duty.
  • I didn’t really consider most of your “maybe” list, mostly because I don’t have orbs but also because merged Norne seems better than most of them.
  • If I believed in DR without NFU I would have gone after dragon wall for Nowi. Actually, if I was a big believe in DR I would probably have given it to my M.Byleth even though he has +atk -HP (i.e. pretty squishy in general).
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Gustav: Slaying + SF + Bonfire + DR + lack of DC prf skill makes him the top Near Saver. He tanks can even tank common red threats like Kempf and Eliwood without losing a sweat.Just be aware of Odd Tempest BCelicas at full health.

That is oddly specific :feh_morganagrom:

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Get it? Oddly?

(Also, is that F.Morgan in the emote?)

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Yes it is.

I think xchan got burnt by my Celica on the first try. So uhh… woops? :catwave:

EDIT: I will probably have my inputs later during lunchtime.

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Now that I think about it, green near save is kind of sketchy because of Eliwood and Ayra and maybe B.Alm when he gets his refine…or even Tibarn. I’d probably still do it on astra because Seiros is going to be on every single team for like a year, but this could get messy.

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Yeah I think blue near save is imo best. Considering the most common threat is Eliwood, and others are red or blue for the most part, green melee threats are pretty rare I think, except like Hel in light, who is weak anyways :catroll:

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As promised, here’s my 2 cents.

Right now, out of the 4 archetype (hit and run, vantage, pure tank, Galeforce), the former 2 are falling out of favor especially in VoH. I will specifically talk about Astra season as Light season is still a meme festival right now on offense due to defense lacking meaningful options.

  1. General increase in standards for maps, as most maps have some sort of defensive mechanisms that makes a pure hit and run / vantage difficult to perform. This includes the likes of Far Save tanks, very bulky frontline, or a ranged / cavalry unit capable of chasing you down.
  2. Turn 1 strategies are tearing up the metagame right now. In the past, there’s only cav line, but right now there are more variants of such strategies, ranging from Return Traps, Sigurd Rally Traps, etc. The space coverage provided by these teams makes it difficult to engage safely.

Hence, the call of using Save units is indeed not a bad call; they are largely defensive, and using a save unit allows you to protect your Mythics from getting sniped, which indirectly means more space to work with. Far Save is the stronger of the two, as most space control set-up rely on cavalry nukes such as Legendary Lilina, Duo Lif, Reinhardt, etc.

If that is not possible, it is fine to use traditional tanks, however, you would still need to watch out for those set-ups. Multi-tank setups that have the capabilities of taking out the opposing cavalry in a single encounter are key. This includes the likes of Micaiah, Fallen Lyon, Xmas Altina, and other cavalry effective units.

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I only have one SF fodder so it’s going to whichever of the two ends up on defense (probably Gustav; I feel like the 75% reduction is harder to deal with than B.Hector and people are more prepared for Hector because he’s more common and people aren’t expecting an instant bonfire out of Gustav.

That is true. Far Save Gustav is harder to deal with on defense because DR is harder to avoid, but Bridal Micaiah (well any Micaiah to be fare) is pretty common. Gustav doesn’t have armor effective nullification nor debuff nullification. I wouldn’t be surprised if she can straight up one shot him. We should run the numbers before you commit.

Firstly, I only need 1-2 saves per season.

In fact you only need 1 Far Savior and 1 Near Savior. Like I mentioned in the team section, we have enough blessings to be able to rebless them every season and still have a spare for new teams and ideas. Don’t be affraid to spend them if you need to (because using a blessing is way cheaper than building a second savior).

The last consideration is that I enjoy labouring to protect my support units and saves feel a little too cheap in the immediate state of the game. Of course, I don’t enjoy getting overwhelmed, but if it happens infrequently I consider that the price to be paid.
All of that aside, is there a reason I cannot throw two units forward, either of whom can tank the entire defense, maybe even side-by-side (AR-O with bonds on non-saves?!), and use them as a shield behind which support units and chill/sabotage mythics hide? (Or a funny solution might be to use an obstruct seal. Then I could block four columns with two units. It sounds so amusing I’m going to look into it.)
Maybe I use Brunnya with a near saver. Can’t I just complete the team with Naga + Plumeria + Reginn + support/extra Reginn?

Brunnya with a Near Savior and 4 Mythics is a really viable strategy. In fact, 4 Mythics is what I’m leaning towards right now. My current teams are Double Saviors, NCD tank + Near Savior, NCD tank + Ranged Savior and Omnitank with support (becuase sometimes I want to have fun too). The 5th slot is sweep nuker with 3 dancers to deal with armor stall teams.

I think your playstyle gravitates towards omnitanking (what I describes as non-save tanking on the first post under Maybes), either with a support or a second tank (Near Saviors for ranged omnitanks and Far Saviors for melee omnitanks). I find omnitanking way more enjoyable than savior tanking, but the meta is leaning towards open maps and turn 1 shennanigans (or at least on my experience), and those maps punish omnitanking pretty hard as there’s no way to guarantee the supports will be well protected. They also benefit from having isolation around to prevent enemies to overextend, so BFjorm is pretty much mandatory for Astra.

For avaiablility, the best units are probably BIke (Light, unless he is supported by a Far Savior, then Astra might work for him as he really needs the extra res from Eir/Dagr to deal with ranged units), Norne (Light or Astra), Micaiah (probably Light for spd builds with NFU) and Brunnya (Astra). Nowi could also be an option although she might have troubles OHKOing some common threats.

In my experience, FLyon is not a good omnitank, even when protected by a Near Savior. He can easily get overwhelmed (he doesn’t have enough sustain, as he wants QR as a seal over Mystic Boost, which leaves Noontime as his only source of healing). I wouldn’t recommend him over Brunnya, Norne or Micaiah. He works best as a NCD counterpick tank for cavlines or mixed teams where there’s like 2 ranged units at best IMHO. Omnitanking really wants to focus on +spd and NFU to prevent being doubled/not being able to double, and FLyon can go there, no matter how much support he gets.

Not running double saves and wanting to focus on speedy tanks reduces the number of viable supports to BLucina (who works great with BIke and Norne) and MCorrin (non physical tanks). NY Veoluria can be an interesting option and so is Flayn. BowHinoka can also work, but your secondary tank would probably have to be a Far Save tank.

with B.Lucina slightly behind two units. Probably during light season to patch her res, and I would give her, like, close call + kestrel stance from the Say’ri codes manual?

I kinda love Even Pulse Tie on BLucina because even though my omnitanks have Pulse Smoke, that’s usually not enough in the current meta. Charged up units will either be protected by a Savior (making it hard to trigger Pulse Smoke on PP) or will have such a big range (think LLilina), that they will not be hit by it during EP. But if EPT is not an option, then what you are suggesting doesn’t sound that bad.

TMFM looked at my core and said if I go 175+ BST I probably get into top 3k in AA. You’re saying I’m not even close. Is the difference between 4k and 3k in AA really that large? I’m ranking consistently better than 4.5k using a pair-up legendary and matching blessings on the core.

I will have to check. What’s your current score range with the legendary unit?

@Maskilraid that was exactly who I had in mind, although I have seen several BCelicas around.

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My friend, king of galeforce, you need to put Lynja to work

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On the galeforce teams once I get enough duos to take her off defense duty. This is the tank thread :P

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This is what I used last month. I placed either 200 ranks above or below 4k; don’t remember precisely. Think it was around 3.8k.
https://tinyurl.com/yf896que

About EPT: far save tanks do concern me, but I figure I can probably hit one of their pulse-irrelevant units most of the time (ex: someone at the top of the IP chain) which would mean the units collecting pulses will get decharged. Someone like Brunnya, I might even try to launch at them without a support unit. If they’re depending on pulses and I knock that out, I figure she’s likely to survive everything else. That aside, buffers are hardly the only support units I consider because of options like temari and sudden panic. How many teams will have both a far save and clear debuffs on all turns, and of those teams, how many actual attackers will they use since that already requires an armour, a staff unit, and probably two refreshers?

I happen to have -spd on my Gustav so the only B.Micaiahs that can OHKO him must have -spd themselves AND not have Peony/Plumeria on the team which makes no sense to me if they’re thinking of player phasing a far save.

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Ha. Touché

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@xchan

I’ve been looking at the options, and stuff is still up in the air because we don’t know how much the meta will switch toward firesweeping as save armours become more common on both sides.

I wanted to hear more about your experience with F.Lyon because I find hard to believe that the young version will prove tougher than the 50%DR version. I do want to use one or the other on light season as my go-to NCD tank because it’s hard to find a unit that doesn’t take like 40-50 damage from Brami and both of these units can give Brami a really hard time. (Maybe not my long-term pick though? I’m concerned how they fare against the impact builds.)

You said you find he tends to get overwhelmed. Could you say more precisely what that means / looks like?

I’m wondering what you think about the idea of a double-pulsed sol, so that it activates as soon as he gets hit the first time, and from then on it generally activates as soon as he gets hit. He’ll take a double each time, normally, and if he doesn’t get his QR blocked he’ll finish the battle at 1CD so that it’s ready to activate on the next hit he takes. You had already mentioned on some thread that you find smokes are hard to use on him, and I thought, fine, why not switch to time’s pulse then? Then you put infantry pulse on some support unit, and he’s in a really good spot when it comes to healing.

Here’s how I was thinking of doing it. (Shown with blessings from Naga and Reginn.) She does double duty, also being on the galeforce teams where I use the pulse differently.


And then

maybe with this behind. I chose him because it’s unclear how I’m doing for OHKO near-savers and he can both block impacts and limit damage from when cavs rush past Lyon on maps with wide-open centers. His res is fairly good. (Don’t mind the version of near save; atk/res would probably be ideal but I’m not planning to fodder Gustav.) Also, if I can pull fodder for the unity, he blocks atk debuffs, which is obviously valuable because Mira.

On light season my instinct is to try to put F.Lyon, partly because I have Nowi there and I think I’m stuck with her for the next few months. I played around in the unit builder and concluded that I prefer Norne with close foil, but I’m going to need a few months to gather enough codes for the spendthrift manual and the copies of Norne herself. So if Nowi is blue, it would be nice if my alternate tanking team is a bit different. I thought this combination might be interesting.

(shown with blessings from Dagr, Eir, Mila, Freyja)


Maybe I’ll leave Freyja out and include some support unit instead. My plans for the galeforce teams on light season are on hold because I can’t seem to find a suitable second galeforcer, but I expect to use one infantry pulse on any arrangement so again, that unit might end up doubling on this team to provide Lyon a pulse.

Arden would have been funny on astra season, but he takes too much damage from Seiros. If Duma is also on the team it would become a problem. Here on light season, his res isn’t even that bad, and it certainly looks like enough with 86HP behind it. Might even try to bolster him with visible buffs since he’s not going to panic at anything that doesn’t spend a whole unit-turn generating the panic.

Further down the road, I’ll probably switch to Brunnya? For the moment, the grail cost is too high.

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Not sure how realistic this is but your Arden got me thinking. While this isn’t a “counter all” tank, it certainly seems to be an impenetrable Def wall that will hit hard to say the least. With the obvious weakness to dragons, and maybe Petrine I guess. Tho the big HP may save him on unfortunate match ups.

This does require 4 Milas for max Def, the extra turns won’t hurt either I suppose.
When baiting, not counting ally support/any buffs
Atk:65
Def:85
Ignis:68
Spd: who cares, feel free to double me
Res: dragons, please don’t hit me

Enemy hits giving him 2 charges, his first Brave hit charges ignis fully, then he claps back with it. If they somehow survive, he does it again. They can’t affect his Atk/def with debuffs due to unity, only makes them better.

His position is to sit back 2 spaces from your full invested ranged baiter, whoever that may be. I’m thinking they may want Null C? Idk, that’s not the point atm.

PS game press, you still don’t have Ardens weapon added to his page…

On light season I think he’s generally a good play. Aggressive dragons are uncommon to begin with (unlike on astra where Seiros is literally every team with 7 defenders and quite possibly Duma as well); the ignis is massive even with only 1-2 of Mila and fewer merges; he probably never panics and he might even dodge shrines because his spd and res are so spectacularly bad (or if he takes a def debuff on your build, he just gets stronger); guard is built into his weapon.

If there’s one common threat that might put serious damage on him it’s Hel. He needs to OHKO her on the first hit of two or else he’s taking extra damage on his res, but she’s a mythic so low HP and guard bearing doesn’t work when she attacks into him so he might pull it off. At least she’s green. There’s almost no way she will get through more than 60ish of his HP, especially if the team has res mythics.

(Also, 4 Milas = no ranged carry. Mila does not unlock slot 6.)

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