Organizing my AR-O tanks

Complete forgot about Hel hitting res and about needing a specific mythic for that last slot. I guess one day, well get a new Def boosting mythic that also unlocks the slot at least.

Maybe he could benefit from Mystic boost in the seal? He better KO most on that first ignis tho.

Could even go an alternative route for that, if QR is necessary.

Steady breath
Follow up ring
Mystic Boost seal

Still gives him the same charge rate for ignis while forces his double. You lose what unity brings to the table tho. This could also just be more of a budget build in general.

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Sorry for the late reply. I’ve been sick this past few days and I couldn’t articulate the words correctly. Imma base this analysis on my experience running him and Kiria as my NCD ranged tanks, but also on how tanking has been evolving lately (without saves).

Story time on how I ended up with FLyon as my NCD tank

My relationship with FLyon has been a bitter sweet one. I blame that juicy 50% DR for baiting me into think he was going to be a ranged BIke (at least for ranged units). And from what I can read, I’m worried that you might be being baited too.

I first decided to invested on him because I was looking into switching to double tanking for AR back in November-December. After reviewing the different options at the time, I decided that the best tank for my needs (someone who could run NCD or a sustained tank, so BIke could be the one running NCD) was either BClaude, HGrima, FIke or FLyon.

Long story short, I ended up with FLyon and a forma Kiria as my AR NCD tanks and from my gameplay, I would say that Kiria outperforms him in most occasions (to the point I switched him to Light, my easiest season, and moved her to Astra, my hardest season).

Kiria vs FLyon vs YLyon

Side note: omnitanking or specialized tanking?

Before going deep into comparing them both, I have to say that neither work as omnitanks. Their bulk is not that great to be able to survive multiple hits of the high invested AR ranged threats, and their healing is almost nonexistant. They are great counterpicks to deal with 1-2 or even 3 enemies, but they will not be able to “single handle” full defenses like BHector or Gustav can or how BIke used to.

This is the reason why I don’t think smokes are good on any of them, as they tend to pick their own battles instead of going deep into enemy territory (were smokes would have targets to activate against) and facetank everything.

When comparing both, assuming the same kit and level of investment, FLyon has slightly worse defenses (32/35 vs 35/40), way less attack attack (40+17 vs 41+23), same limited access to healing (specials and seals) and has no apparent way to prevent doubles. On paper, his DR would seem to be the key factor in making him way more tanky, but in reality, the extra attack allows Kiria to OHKO on retaliation many more opponents, avoiding 100% of the damage that a follow-up would do. In those situations (which are more common than not, as I my supports are centered on increasing attack), FLyon’s 50% DR becomes a glorified follow-up negation.

This is the approach I was having in mind when I said YLyon could outperform FLyon. He has better defenses than Kiria (40/43 vs 35/40), similar attack (38+23) but unlike her, he is not vulnerable to debuffs (which makes OHKO slighlty more reliable) and in my case, it’s easily mergable (making his attack indeed better). Micaiah is the other unit I’ve been considering as her DR and damage effectiveness might allow her to perform in a similar way, if not better, but I’m not 100% sold on that yet.

In the instances were OHKO is not possible, FLyon will defenetely be the superior unit (as he negates the double, basically), but like I said before, omnitanking is not as reliable as it used to be, so I made OHKO in retaliation the focus of my AR supports.

Side note: Can FLyon be better at OHKO in retaliation?

I’ve been toying with the idea to make FLyon more lethal, which revolves around Time Pulse (like you suggest too) and a more offensive special (like Ruptured Sky), but I haven’t found a strategy that makes it work (Pent might change that). Inantry Pulse on a team member would be a good alternative too, but unlike Pent, it only works on the first turn.

As for the Near Save tank. I would rather invest in someone who can reliably OHKO rather than in someone who relies on doubles to do so. For that reason I would pick Arden over BEphraim (dragons are not that common on AR-O, and even then, he has an effective 112 res), but I would wait for the upcomming BK and Zelgius refine before commiting. Is might be generous and give us something like a slaying effect, DR or healing.

If you decide to go with him, I’m not so sure the WF is all that needed. Like @MiThiKaL, he shouldn’t care that much about being doubled when he can unleash Ignis on the enemy. SF isn’t the best either (because he already has guard on his wepon), so maybe VF?

Conclusions: OHKO vs Speed tanking

As I final thought, I want to talk about how tanking has been evolving with or without the saves, because from your build suggestions I see a trend that might be misguided due to Brunnya status as an omnitank. I’m talking about debuff nullification.

Don’t get me wrong, debuff nullification is great and it’s always nice to have as an added bonus, but from my experience it is not a key factor on the survivability of a tank. The biggest issues are specials and doubles.

AR-D is heavily focused on being offensive. Their objective is to kill stuff and for that, they tend to overinvest in attack, speed or both (not to mention the prevalence of units that can force doubles like Bram, DuoLif or Thrasir).

Since tanks can’t reliable hit the same insane numbers (because they need to invest in three/four stats instead of two), that leaves them with three options: negating follow-ups through skills like Wary Fighter, forcing the speed check with a speedy NFU tank or avoiding the second hit through OHKO in retaliation. Since the introduction of NFU (and units with NFU prfs), the first option has become less and less viable.

We have talked a about how OHKO in retaliation is key for slow tanks like Kiria and FLyon. But even though I’m well invested on the OHKO strategy, I believe that the speed based tanking is the most reliable and future proof of the two.

This is the approcah that Brunnya fits in. It’s not her debuff inmunity that makes her great, but the extra stats she gets along the way, specially the speed. That boost plus her allies support allows her middleling speed to be high enough to avoid many doubles and even double some units back.

If you were willing to invest on speedy tanks (and you already mentioned Norne, who is in a similar position as Brunnya), then BEphraim makes a lot more sense.

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Regarding Ardens best B skill, while I did realize the guard effect of Special Fighter is redundant, it allows him to free up his A slot. Otherwise it’s locked into a Breath skill. SF is there solely for the special acceleration, since vengeful only activates on the Ardens hit and not the foes. (Unless there is another way to get his special moving faster, like BLucina. That could be hard to incorporate tho).

This lets Arden run a better A skill such as unity. Unless we get a tier 4 breath skill that is somehow superior to Unity. The obvious downside of not running vengeful is that we no longer have QR, which like we established Arden wants to kill with the thay first Ingis or use up his seal for QR.

I’m not saying SF is the absolute go to, but still worth considering.

Edit: an another route; Bonfire/Unity/vengeful
Bonfire isn’t quite as deadly as Ingis but this still allows for 4 total hits with at least 1 bonfire on his first Brave hit.

65 (107) 65 65 (bonfire + vengeful)
Or
65 133 (ignis + SF)

Ehh numbers are a bit off, still accounting for 4 milas which isn’t doable.

Sorry to hear about your health, and no worries. The reply is still really helpful.

I won’t deny that 50%DR is a significant part of the draw for me on F.Lyon, but I just thought he’s really tanky in general because around 35 in both def and res for IVs plus raven effect. What’s really attracting me right now is that the raven effect with good base res lets him straight up tank Brami (even without the 50% DR he would be in decent shape with double res blessings) which means he can pass NFU for NCD. What I’m hearing from you suggests to me that his main problem is that his healing is bad (which I agree, assuming no pulse support). He’s not good with NCD + mystic boost, as I have seen from Akariss and PM1 replays. Skipping QR is not good. But the problem is that his opponents have no HP by the time he can activate even noontime (or usually sol, because he’s going to get doubled, but if the opponent has like 10HP that’s still pennies). That’s why I thought pulse support might give him sustain. He needs spiral (or a ton of attack) if he wants to sustain the OHKO strategy, but if he gets doubled then noontime/sol don’t activate only on the first retaliation against his first opponent; it works the second and the third and, if necessary, the fourth or fifth. Mind you, glimmer/bonfire/iceberg might be equally fine because if he gets one OHKO, he probably keeps enough HP to maintain QR for his second fight.

As for debuff nullification, I’m mainly concerned about it on astra where you can expect to lose 8 points of atk and some def and res if you don’t have it. Mirabilis is VERY easy to incorporate into an anima team. Spd tanks tend to find it hard to deal with because they spread their stats a bit thin and have lower atk stats to start with, but it’s also really bad news for OHKO units because getting doubled is only the start of bad things that can happen when you miss the KO. Second to that, I like it on infantry during weeks when armour/cav/flier schools are not bonuses, because I hear a lot of high-level teams use infantry schools because infantry tanks are so common. Spectrum -8 or -9 is pretty brutal. I mean, even spectrum -4 is pretty harsh, just throws your merges out. Maybe I should prepare a F.Ike as an infantry school counterpick.

I prefer OHKOs to QR myself because impacts and the occasional NFU (ex: Selena) exist. I’m wondering why you think spd tanking is the way of the future even though it requires tanks to pursue four stats instead of three (slow tank) or two (AR-D attacker). I’ve always been concerned about its effectiveness against brave weapons (Reinhardt and L.Leif for example) and OHKO setups (ex: L.Lilina, Lysithea, Ophelia); now I’m increasingly concerned about what far save will mean for units like Brunnya because one of her advantages is being able to go in solo and veto the firesweep or odd recovery. She might not die to a far save because they probably won’t double her back when she’s on NFU, but it’s bad enough that she can’t get rid of the unit that’s going to cause her the most problems and she might get OHKO’d by, for example, SF bonfire.

About B.Ephraim, I’m definitely waiting because I’m not foddering my only Gustav (with +atk -spd no less). I’ll just use Gustav in the meantime. But I like him a lot better than any of the sword options because they have poor res. On light season that’s less of an issue, but on astra there are Duma and Seiros to contend with. 40% DR isn’t going to save Zelgius if Seiros doubles, and I’m not convinced about his ability to OHKO through Seiros’ dragon wall, especially during her bonus seasons. Even without 10 extra HP he needs to find something like 75 damage before dragon wall’s reduction, and that’s really hard when he’s red and Black Luna isn’t a burst special. The other problem is that sometimes ranged cavs just run past the ranged tank, which is why I put wary fighter on Arden and why I like it on B.Ephraim. He doubles despite it because the only way to stop his double is NFU. He nullifies impacts and all other forced undoubles. (Also, he heals when he hits, whether or not the special activates.) Plus, I took a look at high investment Eliwoods and that matchup is very easy to lose in one round if I don’t stop his double. (Now that I think about it, it’s pretty bad for Zelgius too if he gets doubled, though maybe not entirely losing.) Eliwood can hit 80+ atk after accounting for triangle advantage. But if Ephraim can hit twice for every time Eliwood hits, it’s probably fine as long as Eliwood isn’t using ignis/glacies. Heavy blade bonfire isn’t exactly my preference (I would have preferred warding breath ignis) but I’m wary of letting Mirabilis debuff his atk by 8 points, especially when Eliwood will block his special.

@MiThiKaL I found SF convincing; I’m not sure what he should go for if not that. The unity is really good, and I would want an ignis if I’m going for this. The first alternative in my mind is to put infantry pulse and sudden panic on B.Lucina, but then what’s Arden doing with his B-slot? He doesn’t need a follow-up, and the unity does away with the advantage of slick fighter. He can’t use lulls. Keep wary fighter as a protection?

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Hmm good point, if he doesn’t need special fighter then wary fighter doesn’t sound terrible. I just wonder if there are any bad match ups with not having the QR effect (seal). Obviously that’s not an option if you run WF.

So if he truly has a free B slot, it’s worth exploring all his options.

Dull close, probably not, ARD doesn’t typically go heavy on visual buffs

Mystic boost (maybe double? At the cost of no QR seal) to negate Hel/Petrines effect. Healing isn’t bad either

Cancel affinity?? Idk if TA is used enough to justify. Or if anyone can even get enough attack to make it a problem. I would be shocked to see someone work Heavy spear + TA on a ARD. Especially with everyone expecting BHector, who doesn’t care about armor effectiveness.

You got me thinking about building an Arden now, if only I had Save skills.

Doesn’t Vengeful Fighter has the same cooldown acceleration effect but instead of guard it has QR?

@Seeker
The reason I believe speed is going to matter more in the future is because I suspect sweep skills will be more common in the future. NCD is already hard to manage successfully (few tanks can really use it well), so that will make speed a lot more important.

I agree with the extra stat being a problem, but I think speedy tanks don’t want extra attack as they will naturally double. But like I said before, speed creep is a sprint, while defense/res are more like marathons. Investing is speed is too resource consuming and I’m not a fan of it.

Edit: regarding the Arden discusion, if BLucina is in the team, then Vantage seems like a great B skill to deal with some unexpected situations.

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On astra, dull close is probably worth 5 def/res because Mirabilis. I don’t think that justifies a B-slot.

@xchan VF only grants extra charges on the unit’s attacks, so he can only go up to bonfire. 1 charge from the enemy’s attack, two from his first hit, and then it’s time to fire.

Vantage = cannot fire the ignis consistently. Sounds very risky to me.

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Oh, I see. I don’t know whay I thought it worked the same.

Yeah, Vantage might not be ideal and Slick Fighter is pretty hard to come by. How about Special Spiral? That should defenetely help with Ignis.

Spiral is really good once you get it rolling…the advantage is that it works even when he’s under 50%HP. The problem is that it’s hard to pulse him.

(Also, the unity makes slick fighter redundant. Otherwise I think he solves everything using steady breath. Steady breath + slick fighter is the alternative to unity + SF, it seems. If a 300SP version of steady breath comes out we might prefer the slick fighter combination.)

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Fingers crossed for new breath and fighter skills. I really want to make Arden work.

For Ephraim, I understand your reasonings and I agree. He is a good option to run too. I’m just too invested into the OHKO strategy to really consider him over Arden.

I’m starting to wonder whether it isn’t better just to bring B.Lucina as opposed to an extra mythic. It’s 5 HP and 3 atk or 5 def. B.Lucina gives 3 atk AND 3 def just off her weapon, plus frees either the A-slot or the B-slot. She’s better than mythics at providing panic, and she can fight about as well as they can after getting the stats from them. (Also, if somehow Arden is running out of HP, she can probably fight any dragons for him.)

Maybe Arden takes wary fighter after all? Just in case some healer decides they’re going to go around your ranged tank. With L.Sigurd, this is now a thing, if your ranged carry finishes in a draw with a ranged cav. If we could deal with healers using deflect magic, this wouldn’t be a problem, but deflect magic doesn’t work against staves.

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What about odd/even follow up? Combines Wary fighter and QR, but of course every other turn. Not sure if that’s too inconsistent, but tbh he can get away without a B skill it seems.

Very interesting idea!

I question how often he will need the follow-up (which would make wary fighter better) but it would really improve his matchup against Hel on the correct turns.

Would you go odd or even? I think I would go odd because of the turn 1 attacks going on.

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Good points , its hard to find a support better than BLucina. Is there any instance where Arden would regret showing up without QR? Someone who could survive his first Brave attacks and punish you in some way?

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I’m big on turn 1 attacks, weather it’s player or enemy phase. So I’d favor Odd, in almost any case.

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um…yes I can imagine some scenarios.

  • deflect melee. Not often seen, but if they’re trying to lunge it’s by no means inconceivable.
  • Kempf is often seen with escutcheon. Is that enough to tank an ignis, especially with Hel’s blessing?
  • to OHKO Hel with the first hit is not easy. The quad Mila build you showed above has about 65 atk, and I don’t think that’s quite enough, especially if Hel is a bonus unit.
  • Eliwood? Your QR won’t work anyways but the ignis isn’t going to fire. I don’t know about this being trouble because it just means Eliwood will die in 2 or 3 or 4 or 5 rounds instead of 1 and he’s never doing any damage because 70+ def. He also can’t target support units even with 4mvt because near save.

How about LSigurd himself? I’m really scared of him right now after his Abyssal-self deleted my Gustav, but fortunately, I haven’t faced him yet.

Edit: Also, have you considered Gwendolyn? She has slaying effect and pseudo breath (or full one with VF). She also has good res to deal with the dragons. The problem is her damage output, but specials should help.

Assuming neutral IVs, catch at max function, one +def mythic and one +somethingelse mythic, 56 def 51HP. His damage reduction only works against the first hit, so he has to tank the ignis normally. The Arden I showed has 64 atk 64 def unbuffed, which means Sigurd’s def is not enough to submerge Arden’s atk and the ignis alone is almost enough to kill him. I don’t see Sigurd winning even when he’s a bonus unit, especially not when Arden is receiving buffs. But if the ignis somehow triggers against the 40% reduction, then it’s a toss. Arden might win anyways if he has enough atk, or he might not. He’ll survive either way because he has 64 def and a bazillion HP, but the bigger problem is probably the extra movement on all of Sigurd’s teammates.

I took a very brief look at Gwendolyn a few hours ago and I just don’t buy it on 30 atk, but I’ll have another look. (Also, I don’t have fodder for CF)

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Yeah, Gwen and Sheena’s 30 atk is pretty sad, but at least they can be max merged pretty easily, while Aden costs a ton of grails.

Nice to see Arden doing good against LSigurd. It gives me some hope. I’m kinda confused with all the theorycraft though. Is Arden going to be used on light season (like the use of Mila suggests) or on Astra (like facing Seiros suggest)? or are we looking for someone who can deal with both?

Have you considered the extra damage from Naga’s C skill when calculating Arden vs Seiros?

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I’m only considering Arden for light season. I got the impression the two of you were interested in his potential on astra.

So no, I didn’t consider anti-dragon damage against Seiros. I thought Arden was winning without it; my problem was that if Seiros and Duma both show up I don’t think he can take them both. I expect him to take like 70 damage from Seiros (which is an argument against special fighter or even slick fighter builds, I now realize).

Gwendolyn is actually doing way better than I expected. I don’t have fodder, but if I did I would seriously consider this. (Shown with blessings from Naga and Reginn.) Hits for 100 damage (plus any atk debuffs) minus opponent’s def on the bonfire, and she has 48 res to boot which means if some cav runs past the ranged tank she might very well just tank them. Even 72 atk won’t bust crafty fighter.

Having looked at this option, looks like B.Ephraim is still better. He’s only 6 res behind; he has 4 more atk; his colour advantage is against the 7th slot mythic (or B.Eliwood, who might be the next major threat with CYL3 refines) instead of against Eliwood (and I expect Fafnir to be the next anima mythic based on the vibe he gives off; that’s another blue); he forces an undouble; he blocks impacts; he heals when he hits.

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