Salem Tier List Change Log

The first part of the upcoming change log is here, featuring the most important bits: the new Servants.

I’ve added Osakabehime and Mecha Eli-Chan here as well, and for good measure updated Illya’s Tier Explanation as that slipped through the cracks apparantly.

Feel free to comment about the listed Servants here, although I would like to request that non-Salem/Halloween Servants are not mentioned in this thread, as they are best discussed in the second part of the Change Log. I’ll try to have that ready later this week, but once the JP update comes through, that has a higher priority.

Personally, I don’t think these placements are very controversial, but we’ll see!

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that MHXX comment

Oh I am delighted to hear this, since she’s my most desired Foreigner.

E: Yeah, these are roughly what I’d expect from GP’s standards, and pretty much where I’d put them to. So something.

To stoke some Absolutely Necessary Fires: How dare you not place Okeanos Caster in Tier EX! Have you seen her! Have you seen her artist!? How dare!

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I am a true piglet, but I must set aside the piglet while doing these.

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I am a true piglet

Order Respect restored. Carry on.

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Im actually surprised I thought Neet and Circe were better than where they were placed. I guess tier lists really arent the end all be all

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Uh, that’s kind of always a thing. Remember especially that we assess Okeanos at NP1. That greatly nerfs her damage output.

Anyway, I think many consider Osakabehime’s placement to be rather generous frankly.

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Seems like fair and fitting placements all around.

As I mentioned in the Caster of Okeanos thread, Abigail’s tier placement is very fitting considering her power in her niche as well as her painful shortcomings. I think moving her lower because of MHXX’s release would be foolish, though.

It’s good to see Midrash rated so highly, as she truly deserves it and does find herself in a comfortable spot for a role in which her class rarely shines.

Similarly, I’ve never really understood why Okeanos is heralded so highly, so I’m equally as pleased with her middle-tier placement.

I’m a bit surprised nothing was mentioned for Eli-chan in regards to how well she can slay Berserker units via her NP. Her damage there challenges even that of Jalter in this regard, and as far as I’m concerned, she’s now the premier unit to take in regards to rushing them down. Otherwise, she still does well as a general cavalry slayer. Considering I’m a bit weak on Assassins until Shiki in a couple months, she’ll receive quite a bit of use.

All things considered, good choices across the board, even if I lament Ne Zha’s ultimate (yet justified) spot.

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I guess if its for NP1 I get it, I would always try to get NP2 on a 4 star I really want. Its just from gameplay ive seen shes been crucial for her NP stun

That’s mainly because we can slay those even better with other Servants if we factor in CE choices and the full combo. Besides, we have so many options for that, it’s not something I’d consider truly noteworthy.

Although she certainly can blast them, of course.

@RoyAhoy Uh, her NP stun isn’t really all that important.

That’s not really a good reasoning, especially since Berserker is mentioned several times in Jalter’s write-up. We have here a 4* unit that is providing strong competition to a limited 5* unit in this specific area. I think it’s worth mention.

Also, Mecha Eli shines most notably in the fact that she doesn’t require a whole lot of specific CE choices or assistance in order to pull high numbers, which is particularly important for newer masters or those with less extensive rosters. For that reason she’s actually a pretty stellar welfare as a result.

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Well for CQs it seemed to. Shes a lower than 5 star rarity ST caster than has utility instead of only damaged, so im sorry that I thought shed be higher

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The thing is, what are we exactly comparing here, the NP Damage? Because, for Jalter, her criticals nearly hit as hard as her NP does at NP1. That’s what makes her so powerful. It’s the combination of the two. This is also why it’s recommended that she level her Critical ability first. That’s an area where Mecha Eli struggles much harder to compete (after all, she does not have the sheer multiplicative scaling going on that occurs on her basic attack - a drawback of NP Damage buffs.). In addition, it’s a little bit more tricky to get all the Critical Stars in place with Star Gathering, though that’s hardly a large issue if you put your mind to it.

@RoyAhoy I’m confused, did I cause offense somehow? Besides, there are plenty of non-damaging Servants that are placed very highly or similarly. Saint Martha for example, but also Medea Lily and Chevalier d’Eon. In terms of utility they are rather similar, are they not? Then there are of course the heavy support ones, but those are more in Tier 2 (Casgil, Helena, etc.)

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I didnt really look at Medea Lily, but I know the issue with D’eon is she needs quite a lot of NP levels for her to really do anything worth while. But I thought with her being a ST caster that worked well for CQs would make her higher thats all. I really didnt mean much by it

abigail should be tier 0, boycotting this list starting now

but seriously

Yes, she is tricky to place, not in the least because non-welfare Servants are all evaluated at NP1

you know, I know this would be quite a ton bit more work and probably not something focused on ever, but it would be kinda neat to be able to have tier list placements possibly change depending on the np level of all servants

for many a Kaleidoscope is but a distant gacha-fevered dream

finally, something that doesn’t just automatically assume everyone has a kaleido

as unlike Saint Martha (our other teamwide skill cleanser) her Defense Down is teamwide and she has a bonus teamwide stargen buff to boot.

you forgot the most important thing: okeanos caster doesn’t hog all your stars

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Of course Jalter is going to hit harder with her cards by virtue of being a 5* Avenger with a crit skill, so yeah I’m speaking mostly in terms of NP, not to mention the buff stripping and DEF down which further weakens Berserkers.

The write-up simply advertises her as a Rider/Assassin slayer when, in reality, she is more than that due to what I perceive a way above average increased effectiveness against Berserkers. And again, she’s free.

With that in mind, why aren’t Casters listed as well? Ridertoki does put her to shame, but any masters joining since then aren’t going to have him, and regardless it doesn’t mean she doesn’t work there too. I just don’t really get the goal of what you’re supposedly advertising her as, and just effectively calling her a two-trick pony until better choices come around is disingenuous.

Genuinely if I ever get Caster I expect to use her more than my Martha, given the ever encroaching standard of unremovable buffs in all sorts of cases. I mean tbh it’s already here but w/e.

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It is always fun to read your thoughts about new servants.
I haven’t tried out most of them extensively on JP so I haven’t got an opinion (probably should raise Nezha for completions sake), in all honesty the only one I’ve used for harder content is Abby and that is mostly limited to Berserkers or Foreigners… and early on as a NP battery for dailies.
I agree with your points, the NP gain and cooldowns chain her down but despite them she will make a mess out of bosses.

I only have a small thing I’d like to nitpick.
image

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it’s very valuable

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Actually, D’eon’s NP levels are rather irrelevant to what you want them to do - that is just be a lightning rod for everything being thrown your way. Often they die before an NP is ever charged! Which is fine - that’s their job. You can then rotate a new Taunt in.

I use d’Eon a lot actually for most of my Berserker comps. I find the Taunts to be much more effective at removing random deaths from my Berserkers than stacking Defensive buffs.

To draw back on the Challenge Quest comment though, in our (my?) eyes, her sustained performance isn’t terribly great and her piglet stun is often just immunized by bosses. That’s why we mainly scored her for her Instant Charging niche and cleansing niche. The piglet capability just has a bit too much random (does it work?) elements in it.

@MUGI If my plan to rejuvinate the Tier List structure works, this would be one of the easier ones to implement in fact!

Also, Saint Martha can’t steal stars if she’s deeeeeaaaaaddddd. Ahem.

@Drachy

So, here’s the thing, the space we have to discuss elements in the Tier Explanation is limited. As such, we boil down the Servants to the essentials. For Alter Ego Servants, who carry an 1.5x modifier, it’s important that we explain where they are superior to full class options. Given what we have access to in terms of Riders offensively, which are a great many powerful Servants, from Kintoki to the whole glut of SSR Riders many of whom are scarily powerful. As such, a full class option is on average a more competitive option for many Masters when it comes to enemy Casters.

Likewise, we have a full roster to choose from in terms of anti-Berserker Servants. While her full class advantage is in effect here, and she IS powerful here, so too does she compete with the cream of the crop of the entire Servant roster, not just cavalry class Servants. For me, the sheer NP Damage she deals does not offer enough by itself to make her an anti-Berserker specialist.

But what she is, is an anti-Assassin/Rider specialist by comparison. Given the Assassin and Caster class crap modifiers, the Alter Ego demerit is far less of an issue. In addition, many of these Servants have lower attack stats as bases, carry fewer modifiers to boost their performance, and often carry support/utility tools that eat into their effect budget, so to speak. Thus, Mecha Eli doesn’t just become a great counter instead of them, no, she becomes almost the -best- counter compared to them. Basically, the mentions are to emphasize just how powerful she is in that role compared to her other matches. She will rapidly outdamage even 5* Servants, and has awesome Memelin synergy. Perhaps this lack of emphasis did not come across as well as intended, because even Shuten (Caster) does not dethrone her nor does Shiki’s NP Upgrade in 1.25 years.

Does this help understand why we singled that out?

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Regarding the cavalry classes, yeah. That being said:

Can you list some examples? I’m legitimately curious who you actually think fits better for this role that is a 4* unit or below, aside from Ridertoki. Just because everyone deals 2x damage against Berserkers, that doesn’t mean there isn’t a relative spectrum where some are going to do it a lot better than others.

Berserkers are often best dealt with quickly, and there’s no better way to manage this than either with a strong single-target NP that will delete them. The only place this proves to be a problem is maybe if there are Break Bars at play, but even then, Mecha Eli performs pretty well against the likes of Megalos. A Buster NP Brave chain from her is decimating, even in spite of the two-hit Buster card.

I wouldn’t even just call her a Berserker “specialist”, but in reality any unit with a strong 2x NP is going to be excellent for taking them down. What is it really that you think defines a specialist? Does it need to be the critical potential of Jalter? If that’s the case, then the list is awfully short.