Small question about 'alive' servants

During Babylonia episode 2, there came a discussion regarding how Merlin is a servant when he is in Avalon. As “No one who’s alive can become a heroic spirit”. So he answered that the singularity exists in an age that precedes his apperance on Earth, his body doesn’t exist there meaning he’s ‘dead’.

So, anyone alive (those who qualify as heroic spirit I guess) is sort of possible to summon as a servant before their birth date?
Would Merlin not have been summonable after his birth date or in other singularities.
What about Scathach than, what logic was used to define her existence as a servant. Can anyone remind me?

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Yes—FSN mentions it’s possible to summon servants from the future ie before they’re born.

Scáthach technically isn’t summonable. I think Merlin also technically isn’t in Chaldea

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As far as I know, Land of shadows was destroyed therefore she is technically dead, and so Shishou can be summoned, how that actually works ask Nasu.

Yeah, I think Shishou explains in America that she died when Land of Shadows was incinieated with rest of humanity by Goetia. Not sure about Merlin jusrification, as while you CAN be summoned into past from the Throne, you still need “first” to die at some point for it

Wow, I’ve forgotten all about it.

Still she should be alive in Land of Shadows, during whatever the timeperiod she’s being summoned. Unless again if its before her birth?
Basically about two existences at the same time. One as alive, another as a servant. That kinda seems not possible even with Fate logic right? I might be wrong of course.

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Yeah, no. This only counts for time periods in which the incineration actually happened. In our Chaldea, we avoided the incineration, therefore the Land of Shadows still exists. So, Shishou shouldn’t he summonable.

You kinda forgeting plot of UBW here :wink: Idea is - Throne of Heroes exists outside of time, so you may say any hero that ever lived or will live is always recorded there and can be summoned into any time period. Status of their “past self” does not matter.

In Merlins case - never heard anything about Avalon being destrroyed.

That’s not true. Take the the Fate Route as an example here.

Summary

Arturia is summonabe despite being alive. She never entered the Throne of Heroes. There are a few nice graphics that explain that really well.
Arturia is being summoned into any time, where she has a chance to obtain the Holy Grail. All that because of her vow. Everytime, she’s being summoned from Camlann, moments before her actual death. That’s why she’s never been recorded into the Throne of Heroes. But since she’s practically dead to us in the future, she’s summonable.

No, same reason as no matter what life Shirou will lead, heroic spirit Emiya already is and will continue be in Throne. Whether Shirou dies too young, or discards his ideals - does not matter

I never said a word about Shirou, but alright.

Merlin shouldn’t be there as a Servant because he didn’t die, EMIYA can be summoned in FSN because he’s a version of Shirou that died, the real Merlin arrives at the end but he shouldn’t be capable of manifesting during the beggining of the story.

@Fall-Moon
Reason I brought up Shirou was cause of similar situation to Shishou here: as spelled in UBW route , his young self and Archer self are treated by world as already separate beings, so Archer will exist as Heroic Spirit no matter what. Similary, Shishou died in Incineration of Humanity and became Heroic Spirit. From that point on, saving humanity will not change this fact and version of her will exist in the Throne

About Saber being “living” Servant. As was explained in VN, she made similar deal with Founter Force as Emiya in exchange for Grail. To fulfil this she was allowed to be summonable in Grail wars, with undersranding that she will obtain it one day and become Counter Guardian how is summonable across all time

Yeah, but show me the part in E Pluribus Unum, where she actually saysythat she became a real Heroic Spirit that entered the Throne of Heroes.
She only said, that her manifestation as a Servant is a special one, that the incineration ended the Land of Shadows as well, which leads to Shishou being basically “dead”.
She even said so herself with the quotation marks, indicating, that she never actually died, which would be a criteria to actually enter the Throne.
Her, being summonable in America, is because there’s no other living version of her in existence anymore.
You said it yourself: UBW treats Shirou and Archer as two different beings, because Archer is in fact the ideal Shirou aims to be as well as a Guardian. It’s something that has yet to exist.
While Scathach on the other hand isn’t any different to her normal self. The summoned Scathach isn’t a guardian, nor an ideal or anything the like. She’s something that ceased to exist.
That’s why she identical to Merlin. Gilgamesh was able to summon Merlin, because he didn’t exist back then.
Same with Arturia, which is why I brought her up. Technically she died, which would lead to her spirit core being recorded by the Throne of Heroes, which again, is only because she made that vow, as explained in Fate.
Even the game’s mechanics work that way: You can’t fight with two Servants at the same time. There can’t be two versions of the same hero at the same time. (Friend support aside - that’s something else entirely).
So even IF Scathach would have been recorded by the Throne, she wouldn’t be summonable, because there’s a version of her in existence during all time until humanity has ended.

You’ll have more luck winning the lottery than trying to make sense out of FGO’s lore.

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Ok, so, I’ll try my best to explain things how I’ve come to understand them.

The Throne of Heroes exists outside of time. Servants can be summoned from the past or future. The only requirement is that they have died at some point. This, however, leaves a lot of wiggle room. For example, in the case of Scathach, she could theoretically be summoned at any point by anybody because in one reality, she died with the incineration of humanity. Similarly, Shirou died at some point in the future, therefore the version of him that died could be summoned as a Servant, even though Shirou himself was alive. As for Saber being a “living” Servant, I’m 99% confident that she died. She asked to become a Heroic Spirit immediately before she died, but she still died, so she’s not a “living” Servant. As for Merlin… I have no idea. Is there a version of him that eventually died? I don’t know. I can’t remember any great explanation being given, to be totally honest.

Literally nothing is immortal in that sense. Maybe someone will die in a million years from now on and that version will be possible to summon.
So every qualifying individual should be summonable in that case as long as throne of heroes exists?

To my understanding of how things work, as long as there is a future in which that person dies and they qualify to be a Servant at some point before they die, then yes, they could be summoned as a Servant.

Alright. Now again going back to what I asked.
Is it possible to have both the person alive and the servant version at the same time?
Like how they specifically mentioned that alive person can’t be heroic spirit.
Is this statement completely wrong than?

I say it’s impossible. Because what be the point of Merlin not being summonable then?

Merlin has Independent Manifestation. Anyone with that skill, flavor-wise, didn’t get summoned as a servant. Meaning he is the alive Merlin that just showed up for kicks.
FSN has a bit about how, yes, you can summon servants from the future. However, servants from the past hundred years or so are lower power both because of world events and an intrinsic quality of being so recent that they are rarely summoned. As such, figures from the future would be extremely depowered as they have no cultural weight to them at all.