Some comments on the updated Attacker Tier List

Tier 1 is way overstating Chandelure. It is somewhere in the middle of the Ghost type pack, not having Gengar’s DPS or Giratina’s TDO. Also, Fire-type Pokémon don’t tend to get a lot of use in relevant raid bosses. I would personally put it on Tier 1.5.

Sceptile is not better than Roserade, but the gap between them is a minimal 1%. So to me, it isn’t justifiable to put them four tiers apart. Roserade’s placement is fine as it is, but Sceptile should be on Tier 3.5 minimum in my opinion.

I feel like Magnezone is way underrated nowadays. Few if any people ever seem to pay attention to its type resistance list, the highest of any Pokémon in history. This includes Flying, Electric, Rock, Psychic, Grass, Ice, and it just goes on and on. Its DPS isn’t bad either, and on Raikou’s level, as a regular non-legendary Pokémon. To me, the ideal placement for Magnezone should be Tier 2.5 or 3.

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In my opinion Chandelure should go into Tier 2. Giratina is still the obvious top Ghost attacker, and Fire types don’t have big utility right now as you mentioned above.

aye I just want my magnet boi to have Magnet Bomb. He can learn both that and Discharge in MSG so why Niantic crippled him on the Steel end of things I don’t know.

I think that the problem with Magnezone is that it’s secondary type doesn’t have too many uses on t5 raids outside of the ice attacks of Suicune and Kyogre.
Even then in neutral weather Electivire is currently the best against Suicune followed by Raikou, and Raikou is the best against Blizzard Kyogre with a similar Tdo to Magnezone.

I agree that Giratina should be in tier 1 and Chandelure in Tier 1.5 or 2.

Mamoswine deserves a promotion to tier 1.5. Its coverage is just that good.

On the other hand, what is Salamence doing in tier 1.5 when Dialga, Palkia, Dragonite and Garchomp are in tier 2.5 or 3?

Weavile and Tyranitar are too low. The former is still the highest-DPS Dark attacker currently in the game, while tied with Glaceon as the second-best Ice attacker, while the latter remains the highest-TDO Dark attacker and the second-best Rock attacker. Dark, Ice and Rock are among the most relevant types for legendary raids (along with Dragon and Ghost).

The problem with dark is that ghost is supereffective against the same things(except for a pkm like Meloetta) and Shadowball surpass in damage by a lot whatever a dark move can do. Even when attack by something like psychic Giratina-O is the top Dps, and currently the more powerful move of the stronger Dark Mon in the database(Darkrai) is Shadowball.

As for ice Mamoswine is in the top only for double ice weakness, in the scenarios where there is only one weakness it is surpasse by others except if you play with snow weather.

As for Rock, I agree with you Rampardos is nearly always the top when there is a weakness for Rock.

Have you ran calcs with Chandelure? That thing is ridiculous, it’s essentially a Gengar without that ugly typing and a better bulk (meaning it can and likely will out-DPS it in many scenarios where Gengar goes down far too quickly) and it even manages to trump Blaziken, even when Counter is super-effective as well (such as Registeel - nearly double the TDO and a slightly higher DPS)
Chandelure will be knocked down a peg when the blue-eyes white dragon releases, but even then, it will remain a more than sufficient fire-type and an unmatched ghost until maybe Lunala beats it (keep in mind Chandelure pretty much beats Darkrai in DPS as well and that’s saying something)

Chandelure is very good and deserves a spot in tier 1 or 1.5. Personally I prefer giratina origin due to it having 1.5x the tdo and only sacrificing 1.5dps but I can see the argument for either being on top. I also think mamoswine should be at least 1.5 and I still think mewtwo deserves a spot in tier 1 especially now that it has psystrike since it is by far the best psychic type in the game and near the top for ghost, ice, and electric.

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The world isn’t ready for Magnet Bomb Magnezone. Could we even be trusted with such power?

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Chandelure:
It has the highest DPS of all ghost and dark types except for Gengar. But Gengar has its flaws. (lower bulk and psychic weakness) Giratina has more TDO, but DPS is more important in raids anyways. Tier 1 seems fine to me but I could argue why it should be 1.5: In the upcoming gen 5 raid bosses there is not a single legendary that is weak to ghost. (assuming Victiny will be tucked away in special research just like the other mythical pixies Mew, Celebi and Jirachi)

Sceptile:
Agree with @gpcaio, difference is minimal, so tier difference should be minimal.

Magnezone:
Not sure about him, resisting ice attacks seems to be his only niche. But he is still a good electric attacker and isn’t that far away from Raikou and Electivire. Could be tier 3.

Mamoswine:
Agree with @hkn, with his ice and ground STABs he deals super effective damage against 19 different legendary raid bosses! There may pokémon that outdamage him but he is such a versatile all-rounder that he deserves tier 1.5.

Dark types:
While dark types have less DPS than ghosts, they have the advantage of being resistant to both psychic (immunity tier!) and ghost while also having the niche of being able to damage Meloetta. So there is an argument to put them higher than they are.

Mewtwo:
No point in spending countless TMs over and over again when you can just as easily raise a Gengar, Mamoswine or Magnezone. Tier 1.5 is fine as it is.

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Am I the only one amused by Tier 2’s description of “or where we threw all the Dragon pokemon” despite the fact that there isn’t currently a single Dragon in that tier?

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They probably forgot to update the description after changing what was inside :rofl:

I agree that Mamoswine has competition against things not doubly weak to ice, but even in some of those scenarios it can be a reliable option. Mamoswine is on par with Kyogre against a ground moveset Groudon, for example, even tho it’s a very specific one.

Not always the best, but often a strong attacker.

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It’s been a busy week, so I could only update parts of the tier list at a time. The tier descriptions were the last thing that had to updated and that’s done.

T1 Chandelure: This thing is really strong. It’s about as good a Ghost attacker as Gira-O; I would still give Gira-O the slight edge, but if we were just judging Chandelure on the basis of being a Ghost attacker, it and Gira-O would be in the same tier (like Electivire and Raikou). But Chandelure also obliterates Moltres as a Fire attacker, and Moltres was already pretty good in that role. So it would be wrong for Chadelure and Gira-O to be in the same tier, and even more wrong for Chandelure to be lower. It is like Gira-O and a better Moltres rolled into one Pokemon. That’s pretty insane! Fire has always had borderline utility, but it’s good in the upcoming Cobalion raid, and there’s a chance the Regis might return soon.

T2 Mamoswine: I will admit that Mamoswine is at least pretty good in multiple upcoming T5 raids, so its position is subject to change.

T3.5 Magnezone: It has less DPS than Tshock Zapdos. I don’t think it’s nearly as relevant as Dragonite or Tyranitar. Understand that the difference between tiers are really small. Being 3 half-tiers lower than Raikou doesn’t mean that it’s that much worse.

T4 Sceptile: Sceptile performs on a similar level to Venusaur and Torterra going by PkB’s estimator value. And again, being 3 half-tiers lower than Roserade doesn’t mean it’s that much worse. The DPS difference is similar to Swampert vs. Feraligatr, who are separated by 2 half-tiers, but Swampert is also not the best attacker of its type.

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Hello,

What about Mewtwo ? He never been so stronger and always been in Tier 1. Why downgrade him now ?

He surpasses Rayquaza in every point (Even Psychic Mewtwo does more DPS) on a generalist point of view

With the Swords of Justice waited on Raid, the meta-relevance of Mewtwo is going to be more important than ever.

Psychic is as of now very limited. Posion type legendaries aren’t a thing, unless the ultra beasts will get this role, but even then only one will be have a single weakness to psychic. The others have a double weakness to something else.
The swords of justice have the same problem. Only one will be good for Mewtwo, which is terrakion. The rest have either a double weakness to something else, take neutral damage from psychic or are mythical and probably won’t be in raids.

Also being the best generalist also doesn’t mean much, since specialists will always be better.

I mean, if Mamoswine gets downgraded for being the top just here and there, then the same rules should also apply to the rest.

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Then Rayquaza sould not be Tier 1

Rayquaza is the top counter against every dragon that doesn’t have a double weakness. Mewtwo is only the top pick against machamp and terrakion till gen 7. It will however get replaced once black kyurem becomes available, but for now that’s not the case.

Rayquaza is the top counter against every dragon that doesn’t have a double weakness

So, Giratina and the Latis ?

Mewtwo is only the top pick against machamp and terrakion

And T3 Raid Gengar, T4 Raids Nidoking, Nidoqueen, Victreebel, Venusaur. Keldeo in the future… etc
And that’s only the Psystrike version.

The numbers are too much in favor of Mewtwo in term of Neutral DPS (for gym cleaning for exemple) to rank it below Rayquaza

Thank you for the response and hard work on the tier list.

As much as I love Mewtwo and agree that he is stronger than Rayquaza on paper, his versatility depends on having many Charged TMs and unlocking the second charged move (since Psystrike and Shadow Ball cannot be relearnt).