[SPOILERS] Why Sherlock Holmes is Sus :fgo_elementarymydear:

We been knew, but here’s some evidence :fgo_holmescultured:

Why Holmes is Sus

1. Sherlock isn’t human/isn’t a pure heroic spirit.

LB2 Sigurd/Surtr says he has something mixed in him.

In LB4, Pepe calls him inhuman at heart.

In his trial quest, Sherlock and Moriarty refer to "humans" in such a way that makes them seem unrelated. It reminded me of Yu Mei-Ren.




But most hybrids are Alter Egos or have the High Servant passive. The only exceptions, that we know of, are servants from Shinjuku like Moriarty, who are mixed with a phantom spirit.

Those servants came about because of the Demon God Pillar’s special ability. Normally, it’s impossible to fuse a heroic spirit with a phantom spirit.

That said, Sherlock even admits that something is weird, in Camelot.

Moreover, Moriarty says he's from an alternate dimension, and he knows Holmes, so...

What else is from an alternate dimension? Musashi and Arthur.

Arthur is chasing down a Beast. And have you seen the theories that Manaka, a character from Fate/Prototype, summoned Holmes?

And more explanations:
https://www.reddit.com/r/grandorder/comments/g4mb6u/updated_beastsqliphoth_theory/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf

Either way, we KNOW Holmes can rayshift and hop singularities. Maybe he hasn’t shown us the full extent of this power and he actually has Independent Manifestation?

2. Sherlock is hiding information from us.

In his summoning, Sherlock is the only servant who doesn't announce their class.


Maaaaaaaaybe this is because he tells us his name and class in his intro quest, but :fgo_kamadoubt:



In his trial quest, Sherlock is particularly dodgy about whether or not he was a real person. Moriarty even tells him off after this.









Sherlock never explains who summoned him as a Caster (if he really was a Caster), nor how he was able to appear in London, Camelot, and Shinjuku

Sherlock lies a lot. He says he’s joking…but he is really?

In the LB Prologue, Sherlock says he's not good with combat. But in LB2, when Sigurd/Surtr invades the border, he says he's seen plenty of combat.




He mentions in Camelot and Shinjuku (while he’s still a Caster) that he’s also not good in combat.

And again in Shinjuku:


Apparently, in LB6, the way Sherlock says he’s never heard of the Pretender class is sus.

3. Sherlock’s objective doesn’t explicitly match Chaldea’s.

He admits to being here only temporarily.

4. Sherlock made a contract with us without our consent.

The receipts

I’m sure Gudao/ko would have made the contract with Holmes regardless, but the fact that Sherlock felt he had to make the contract while we were asleep is hella sus (and creepy).

5. Design says Holmes is not trustworthy.

In the Part 2 opening, he appears in 2 scenes. In the first, Mash passes Smolvinci and Goredolf walking towards Holmes, who is standing at the end of a corridor. Then she turns to look behind her and we see an expression of shock.

But maybe this means something happened to all of them. It doesn’t necessarily imply that Holmes did anything.

At the very end, Holmes is shown against the backdrop of a red moon(?). He's the only member of Chaldea's crew to have any ominous in the background.

This is also the asteroid(?) that Spartacus destroys in LB3; you can see it at the end of the CM here:

Curious that it makes a rerun :eyes:

The Holmes in Conan Doyle’s stories has grey eyes.

But FGO Holmes has green eyes. Green is archetypically the color of envy; Shakspeare calls jealousy the "green-eyed monster."

In Arcade, they made him look even more snakelike with the thin nose

6. Holmes is a Ruler.

The class container is important. According to the Type-Moon wiki, the conditions for being summoned in the Ruler class are pretty strict: you have to have no desire for the grail. Normally, you’re the arbiter of a Holy Grail War; your allegiance is to the impartiality of the contest and to the grail itself.

Holmes lets us believe that he was originally summoned as a Caster; he says that his spirit origin changed to Ruler when he formed a contract with Gudao/ko. What if that was a lie? What if he was always a Ruler?

What if he only qualifies for Ruler because of what he’s mixed with?

Moriarty, after all, is supposed to be a Caster; he’s only an Archer because of the phantom spirit Max the Freeshooter that’s mixed in with him. The same can probably be said for Mash and her Shielder class.

The game gives us the explanation that Holmes is a Ruler because the World/Throne is telling him not to reveal all the Mystery in it. I don’t buy it. Why was he a Caster before (assuming he was telling the truth about being a Caster)? It has to specifically something about Chaldea that formed his class change.

Tellingly, Holmes has Territory Creation as his class skill; the Ruler-exclusive True Name Revelation is nowhere to be seen. He interrogates Koyanskaya in LB1, asking for her real name, and does the same in LB 5.2, so clearly, he doesn’t have that skill.

Perhaps this is because his deductive powers are on the same level as True Name Revelation? Idk; I’m willing to let this one slide.

That said, I'm not sure what to make of this line from LB2:

7. Holmes is Star attribute.

The Star attribute sets one apart from the World, which is why Enuma Elish, an anti-World noble phantasm, has no power over them. To have the Star attribute means that you are the hope of mankind.

Setting aside the jokes (MHX, Santera, etc.), the only Star attribute servants in FGO are:

  • Francis Drake
  • Wolfgang Mozart
  • Nikola Tesla
  • Napoleon Bonaparte
  • Scáthach
  • Leonardo Da Vinci
  • Jeanne d’Arc
  • Romulus
  • Bedivere
  • Artoria Pendragon (Caster)
  • Sherlock Holmes

From this list, we can check off Bedivere and Castoria for story purposes. Jeanne d’Arc, Mozart, Da Vinci, Romulus, and Tesla are self-explanatory. Napoleon, according to LB2, is the representation of possibility, so that makes sense to me. Scáthach’s has a lore-related explanation as well. Drake is the only one left who’s a little sus, but this could be a nod to a Fate/Extra plotline that I’m unfamiliar with.

But Holmes? He’s not the first detective. His stories are entertaining, but certainly, he’s made less of a contribution to history than, say, Gilgamesh? Iskandar? Hell, even Shakespeare, the most famous writer in the world, isn’t here (while Mozart is. Riddle me that.). Why is Holmes here?

Maybe it’s a nod to his role in the restoration of humanity from Part 2—what will happen—but then why is Smolvinci Human?

The only other trait that some Star attribute servants share is that they are actually from the stars:

  • Space Ishtar
  • Voyager

Reddit discussion on Ruler class and Star attribute.

Holmes even foreshadows the Alien God's invasion in Shinjuku.

This leads me to my next point.

8. Holmes is often compared to non-human entities.

People love to comment on Holmes’s eyes.

In LB2, Skadi says that he reminds her of Baldr, the God of Light.






In LB5, Zeus attempts to curse him, saying that those eyes shouldn’t look at the gods.

We know that eyes are important in the Nasuverse; Ophelia’s mystic eye was a major plot point in LB2 (in which Odin presence was everywhere and nowhere; Odin is famous for his all-seeing eye and his wisdom); the only adaption of Case Files that we’ve gotten so far was about mystic eyes; Tsukihime and KnK are all about the Mystic Eyes of Death Perception, among others…

Bedivere says Holmes reminds him of Merlin.

even tho Holmes isn’t an incubus

Pepe teases him about being inhuman at heart in LB4 Section 15

9. Shinjuku even suggests he’s hostile

Salter said it best.

And Holmes's animosity towards Moriarty is pretty clear.

In Moriarty’s to-be-released-on-NA interlude, he outright tells us not to trust Holmes.

10. Holmes has plans for the future?

Pure speculation on my part, but a few pieces I want to wrap together:

First, because this is FGO, we know that Shit Will Go Down in the future.

BB/Pele/Hotep even says so at the end of Summer 3

At the end of the Murder at the Kogetsugan event, Sherlock promises to take us on a "grander" adventure

11. So what is Holmes, exactly?

He could be a Beast, according to the Qliphoth Tree Theory.

Given his Star attribute and that he appeared during EoR (and that one of the unfinished arcs of EoR is the Abby/Foreigner arc, Holmes could just as likely be a Foreigner:

Small image series that says Holmes is probably Hastur.






Source

Of course, he could also be the beast that Arthur is hunting.

In LB 5.2, he specially calls Koyanskaya his enemy, which means he could be the other half of Beast V.

What do you think?

And what did I miss? What do you think is Holmes’s endgame? How is it, really? (Or who/what is he mixed with?) Feel free to drop JP spoilers in here.

Further Reading/Links Mentioned

Holmes/Extra conspiracy theory doc
Reddit Discussion on Moriarty’s Interlude
Holmes’s FGO Material discussion on Reddit
Gamespot Forums discussion on Holmes (similar to this topic)
Great Tumblr post on why Sherlock is Sus
Holmes speculation post on Reddit based on his design
Beasts-Qliphoth Theory
Holmes being sus about the Pretender class
Reddit discussion on Holmes and the Ruler class
Nrvnsqr post about Holmes, Guifei, and a few other things

43 Likes

Yeah… that was a huge information dump… I’m going to come back and reread this when I’m not feeling high as a kite despite not doing any drugs.

It’s my natural inclination as a Night Owl that’s doing it to me. Thinking isn’t something that’s easy to relax to when I stay up late…

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I’ve been keeping notes for a while lol

A few other things that just came to mind—

  1. Sherlock hides his presence from Romani. He says this is because he can’t trust Romani…but what if he meant that he couldn’t trust Romani wouldn’t out him?

  2. Moriarty does something very similar in his interlude, where he creates conditions where Holmes can’t eavesdrop on his conversation with Gudao/ko. In this interlude, Moriarty tells us not to trust Holmes. This is weird, especially considering Moriarty has been, by and large, acting in our interest.

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Jokes aside I’d bet Holmes is a beast. Maybe we’ll finally find out this year… Or after lb7

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I always had my suspicions but was never the writer type, but I had a feeling you had something in the making and this lays things out pretty extensively. In the face of overwhelming evidence, this theory Hastur be true

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Are you ready to really go down the rabbit hole with this 398 page google doc that examines Sherlock within the context of the Extraverse.

Credits to the holmesextra Tumblr blog

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Holy fuck dudes out here writing novels about this.

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People take their Sherlock propaganda very serious

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He should get that shit published, asap

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This was a really nice read! Leaves lots to think about. Personally I think the weirdest part about Sherlock was with the whole Romani business, hiding and attempting to make us doubt him. Regardless if he feared Solomon ir not… well, it’s strange. Also, what was he doing on Atlas?

Furthermore, on the Arthur matter, now that I think about it I think they’ve never interacted directly? Regretfully don’t own Arthur so can’t check if there’s some reference to him.

But thank you for posting this! It’s really well done and super organized. Thank you for also providing some links :fgo_skadilove:

also talking about sus CasCú has some stuff on him ehhh

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Pretty sure they don’t trust each other because Romani’s actually Solomon and I’m not really sure if Romani himself can analyze Holmes and his secrets while he’s in Camelot examining Atlas

Nice eldritch theory btw. that small details on his coat and the FGO screen looks the same.

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This is how Qanon started

But really in awe of the size of that lad. Absolute unit.

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Back when I first started liking Holmes I had no idea he’d be a part of the main Chaldea crew and a major story character like this, makes it all pretty wild

I’ve never been one for speculation on such things but it’s real interesting to think about. If there’s anything I think it’s that I doubt Arthur’s mission has much to do with him, that particular case is probably gonna be another major event like CCC or Ooku I feel.

Speaking of Ooku though, there is this scene right at the end of it where Holmes says he regrets not being able to see a Beast for himself and that he has an expressed interest in them.

There’s Da Vinci’s comment too. It could mean something as far as this goes

All in all, I’m looking forward to seeing what plays out for him. And I’m totally pulling for his Foreigner alt when we get it

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I don’t have much to add to this as Jakey has got everything covered, but I love this kind of speculation. Not really sure most of this even counts as spoilers though, but I guess it keeps out the whingers.

Also, one minor annoyance this isn’t theorycrafting! :stuck_out_tongue:

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Right, I forgot about that bit :crazy_face:

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A better question than, or rather what better defines “What is he?” is “What is his goal?”

Clearly he doesn’t want any as yet known Beasts to succeed, 'else he wouldn’t have backed Chaldea so far in the Lostbelt arc.

If I recall correctly there’s a mention that he wouldn’t have any qualms killing Gudao/ko if they became a threat (to human order?), so it’s never been the case that he’s a true ally, just that his goals align with Chaldea’s for now.

Anyhoo, little addition to the list:

  • In LB1 he tells Salieri that he too became a Servant through unusual means

Foreigner is probably on the money, there’s a reddit thread with a few mentions of his profile from the FGO Profile books and in game hints:

  • He likely was originally a Caster; Moriarty’s append bonus is Vs Caster
  • He doesn’t have append bonus against Caster (Moriarty’s proper class) or Archer (Moriarty’s phantom spirit hijinks class) and instead Berserker, Foreigner’s regular class advantage
  • His append skills cost 45 star fragments to level, the only servants who have this cost are (all of the) Foreigners released after fragments came out, and foreigners/outer space servant appends for those released before fragments were added (e.g. Abby, Space Ishtar)
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Right, but I don’t know his goal yet

There were a few things Instill want to follow up on:

• Holmes and Koyanskaya seem to have an enemy relationship beyond simply Chaldea/Alien God. I wonder if it’s more of a Kiara/Kama rivalry.
• I also think that, now that we know Koyanskaya’s goal is to become a Beast, Holmes’s might be similar

• The Crypters clearly know more about Holmes than they’re letting on.
• If Holmes is from some alternate dimension, could he be a Lostbelt servant after all? Or something else entirely?

• Holmes being a Pretender (and not a Caster) but then being forced into the Ruler class feels like a possibility.
• But then who is he, if not Holmes? Who would pretend to be Holmes, except Moriarty?

• The only other servants his artist has drawn are Beasts I, II, and III/R—Goetia, Tiamat, and Kiara.

• Skadi called him the Sage of Human History. What does this refer to? I tried looking but I can’t find anybody who was known as a sage unless she’s referring to, like, the Buddha or perhaps an Oracle

Interesting note about appends. That pushes the ideal that he’s actually from another world. But it confuses me as to why he’s helping Chaldea and why Da Vinci trusted him.

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Damn, someone is even crazier than me :eyes:

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Pretty good my boy.

I will say that in the first point, Pepe calls him inhuman more in the sense that he really doesn’t act like a normal human rather because of his Saint Graph. It’s been stated he has problems understating human emotion outside of the logic of it, but then again, we don’t know if it’s something inherent to Holmes or it’s because of his summoning.

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III/R is Wada Arco, even if the concept was handed to her in a brief/with a rough sketch (latter is a hypothetical, not a supposition). Heck, she designed Kiara but the ‘naked apron’ theme was in the brief and Takeuchi had a hand in her unfinalised design.
I have the profiles book with her and the new design is literally sketched over Wadarco’s own illustrations from Extra/CCC.

And III/L is all in ReDrop’s court.

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