Theorycrafting DSS without KScope

This arise out of an Aurora Steel farming discussion with @Poddiadv,

Can you 3T farm with double Skadi without a Superscope, Combat Uniform swap, or Arash sacrifice?

It turns out, Yes! You can with the True Ether Mystic Code:

DSS Recipes

  • Typical DSS setup uses what I’ll call the [100|50|50] recipe. That is, it relies on starting with 100% NP and Skadi’s 50% NP Batteries on Wave 2 and 3, assuming DPS will refund 50% NP from each NP.

  • The True Ether DSS setup as described below uses the [50+50|50|0] recipe, relying on DPS to refund 100% NP on wave 2.

Not needing a Superscope opens up DSS to much more players by allowing the use of 50% CE.

Why does this work?

Background: How NP Gain Works

The NP Gain formula can be found here
https://blogs.nrvnqsr.com/entry.php/3306-How-much-NP-do-I-get-in-combat

For our purposes, we can simplify it to:

Hitcount * NP per Hit * Quick Up * NP Gain Up * Overkill * enemyServerMod = NP Refund

A base Lancelot NP with 100% Quick up from 2x Skadi and Mana Reversal Lv10 activated will refund 60% NP:

(3x 10) hitcount * 0.5% * 200% Quick Up * 200% NP Gain Up = 60% NP refunded

If half of the hits are overkill (that is, 5 of the 10 hits each enemy), then the Overkill modifier is 1.25 (1 + 50% * 5/10):

30 * 0.5% * 200% * 200% * 1.25 Overkill = 75% NP refunded

If this was against Rider enemies, then enemyServerMod = 1.1:

30 * 0.5% * 200% * 200% * 1.25 * 1.1 enemyServerMod = 82.5% NP refunded

EnemyServerMod
Class Normal Special
Saber 1.0 1.2
Archer 1.0 1.2
Lancer 1.0 1.2
Rider 1.1 N/A
Caster 1.2 N/A
Assassin 0.9 N/A
Berserker 0.8 0.96
Ruler 1.0 N/A

Special monsters are

  • xxx soldier
  • pirate
  • zombie
  • pirate zombie
  • skeleton
  • dragon fang soldier
  • ghost

For any given NP we have four variables to ticker with, two of them depend on the enemy lineup.

  • Quick Up
  • NP Gain Up
  • enemyServerMod (enemy dependent)
  • Overkill (enemy HP and DPS damage dependent)

Why True Ether?

True Ether is unique among Mystic Codes in that it alone can affect NP bar for two waves. Its third skill does two things:

  • 10% NP battery
  • 40% NP Gain up for one turn

NP Gain up affects the NP refund for the next wave, thus by using True Ether on wave 2, it helps NP shortfall for wave 2 AND 3.

For example: Lancelot can achieve 100% refund with True Ether against Rider enemies with 5 overhits:

(3x 10) * 0.5% * 200% * 240% * 1.25 * 1.1 = 99% NP refunded, which rounds up to 100%.

Which 50% CE to use?

Unlike Kaleiscope, we have an embarrassment of riches to choose from:

Quick Up and NP Gain Up CE reduces the number of overkill hits required.

Attack and damage boost CEs can also help by help the DPS get enough overkill hits. Plenty of CEs with ATK Up or NP Damage Up to choose from, but a darkhorse pick might be Fondant’s 30% Special Atk against Divine.

Overkill Requirements

Overkill requirements can be calculated by looking at NP Refund formula and plug in the other variables:

Hitcount * NP per Hit * Quick Up * NP Gain Up * Overkill * enemyServerMod = NP Refund

For Lancelot with non-Quick Up or NP Gain Up CEs:

30 * 0.5% * 2 * 2.4 * Overkill * 1.1 > 99%

Overkill = 1.25, or at least 5 of 10 overhit each. Similar calculations can be made with other CE combinations.

What does 5 Overkill hits require, exactly?

Lancelot has a NP damage distribution of 3,5,3,7,8,10,12,14,16,22. This means Lancelot needs to be credited for Overkill on the 6th hit of his NP (3%+5%+3%+7%+8%+10%), or 36% of his total NP damage.:

For a 30k HP enemy, this would be:

30k / 36% = 83,333 damage.

This means when 5 Overkill hits are required. NP damage needs to be about 2.8x (83333/30000) of mob HP,

You can play with the numbers a bit with the Command Chain Calculator:

Summary of Overhit required based on equipped CEs against Rider enemies:

CE Overhits Required Np Damage / Mob HP
Knights of Marines MLB 4 / 10 2x
* Knights of Marines 4 / 10 2x
* One Summer MLB 4 / 10 2x
* Magical Girl of Sapphire MLB 3 / 10 1.6x
* Little Halloween Devil MLB 3 / 10 1.6x
* Little Halloween Devil 3 / 10 1.6x
* Damage CEs 5 / 10 2.8x

Damage boosting

We basically have three classes of CEs available to us: 3, 4, 5 overhit requirement. Damage can be boosted in a variety of fashions

  • Increasing Lancelot NP level
  • CE damage bonuses: NP Damage UP, Quick Damage UP, ATK UP, Special ATK UP
  • Increase CE ATK by leveling
  • Increase Lancelot ATK by leveling, grail, attack fou, or gold attack fou
  • Burning one or both Skadi’s skill 2 defense down
  • Devil Boddhisiva’s NP Overcharge from Lancelot’s NP overcharge ATK UP

Since each overhit is worth 1% NP. Softening up the enemy mob by leading with facecard might also work, but this might not be a stable configuration.

Conclusion

DSS without Kaleiscope is possible if not trickier to pull off, but doing so opens up the possibility space: for Master without Superscope, and for masters to experiment more with alternate CE selection.

Overhit requirements against wave 2 Rider enemies:

CE Overhits Required Np Damage / Mob HP
Knights of Marines MLB 4 / 10 2x
* Knights of Marines 4 / 10 2x
* One Summer MLB 4 / 10 2x
* Magical Girl of Sapphire MLB 3 / 10 1.6x
* Little Halloween Devil MLB 3 / 10 1.6x
* Little Halloween Devil 3 / 10 1.6x
* Damage CEs 5 / 10 2.8x

ie Lancelot with One Summer can 100% refund against Triple Rider wave 2 if he does 2x enemy HP in damage. On the Ice Bridge node, this is possible with NP2 Lancelot.

Similar analysis against Caster enemies:

CE Overhits Required Np Damage / Mob HP
Knights of Marines MLB 2 / 10 1.3x
* Knights of Marines 2 / 10 1.3x
* One Summer MLB 2 / 10 1.3x
* Magical Girl of Sapphire MLB 1 / 10 1x
* Little Halloween Devil MLB 1 / 10 1x
* Little Halloween Devil 1 / 10 1x
* Damage CEs 3 / 10 1.6x

Against Saber, Archer, Lancer, and Ruler enemies:

CE Overhits Required Np Damage / Mob HP
Knights of Marines MLB 6 / 10 3.9x
* Knights of Marines 7 / 10 5.6x
* One Summer MLB 7 / 10 5.6x
* Magical Girl of Sapphire MLB 5 / 10 2.8x
* Little Halloween Devil MLB 5 / 10 2.8x
* Little Halloween Devil 6 / 10 3.9x
* Damage CEs 8 / 10 9x
20 Likes

Mana Reverse Flow is only 100%, not 200%.

It’s +100% NP Gain up, so you add to the base 100% in the simplified formula, likewise for Quick UP.

This has been tested ingame.

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Hi. We are trying to get him to 100% on the 2nd Wave and this is what happened:


And then this on other nodes:

Just like you said it is tricky to make it work in most the classes, the best solution comes the next year with drop of this CE :

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Oh. Ok. Sorry.

Not familiar with the formula

Oh, I want to try this out with my np3 zerkalot so badly! Skadi please come home! Insta 10/8/10 I promise! Got 3 KoM, can try for 2 more soon, might be easier than 1 more kscope…

It’s a sad thing I don’t own any of the specialized damage CEs, only have the etc. category. I’ll try this out in my next dailies session. Thanks for the detailed info :fgo_astolfo:

Update: It’s kinda inconsistent for me, But I’m surprised. I didn’t even consider True Ether as an option. Needless to say, it’s not maxed. And this testing session allowed me to see Lancelot’s new attack animations since I failed the loop. Funny dual wielding Uzi angry knight is funny :fgo_meltbirb:

I’ll keep your info handy. Because of these Skadi looping shenanigans I ended up learning about NP gain modifiers from…enemy class :fgo_alterashock:

3 Likes

After reading all that and I don’t have True Ether Mystic Code xD
Skadi Yep
Zerkerlot NP2 Yep
MLBscope nope
True Ether nope
Waver nope

Sad

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Maybe 10/10/10 with ice-cream bait?

Fake it till make it you know.

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Arash Yep
MLB Imaginary Element Yep?

Go fly some stolen jets. Make you feel better.

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Yep x2

Nope. Perhaps the only person in the forum that didn’t raise Arash

Funny enough this is my favorite Mystic code aesthetically but it’s never talked about. I was leveling it up anyway. it level 9 so I cant wait to try it out. Before all I heard was"Garden of Avalon" now all I hear is “ARTHURRRR”

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Been thinking of changing a traveling portrait ce choice to scathach, think that will work as bait?

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You could also try playing some music.
I rolled her while listening to some Celtic metal.
Worth a shot I’d say.

The setup that I’ve been trying out is Skadi (8/5/10), NP3 Zerkalot (4/4/10) with a single 20/20 KoM, and support Skadi (10/10/10 thank god my friend list is better at managing materials than I am) with True Ether 8.

I can confirm that this always works for 3NPs in a row if you don’t mind handling some face cards for the aurora steel node if that’s what you’re missing to get that last skill up lol. I personally sometimes need an extra turn for actually clearing W3 if I’m unlucky or even more if I’m really unlucky but maybe 10/8/10 Skadi would handle it better?

Putting details of my experimentation under cut since it’s a super specific wall of text mostly just for fun:

//cowboy voice: wot in cardnation

Using both Skadi S1s, Zerkalot S2, and one Skadi S3 on w1 and NPing refunds to 45%.

After using other Skadi, True Ether, and Zerkalot S3s, I usually have to factor in face cards for w2:

  • If I’m lucky and get a Zerkalot Buster or Arts card, I’ll use it on the leftmost Valkyrie before NPing. (You can’t use Zerkalot Quick because it just. Nukes.)
  • If I’m unlucky and only get Skadi cards and/or Zerkalot Quick, I have to use one of the def downs and use two Skadi facecards on the middle Valkyrie before NPing.
    Either way refunds to >=100% and guarantees a third NP.

W3 is heavily RNG-dependent for me. On a scale of least to most f*cked:

  • There was a Zerkalot Buster or Arts face card in W2 so I was able to save both Skadi’s S2 AND I manage to get his singular Quick card on W3.
    I thank God, RNGesus, and also Obama and happily go about my yee-haw farming way.

  • W2 Zerkalot B/A card, two other Zerkalot B/A cards for Brave chain on W3.
    Animation might take a little longer for the requisite Brave chain to finish off leftmost Valk but still 3 turns. Nice.

  • W2 Zerkalot B/A card, one Zerkalot B/A card on W3.
    It’ll take an extra turn since Zerkalot can’t output enough to kill off the leftmost Valkyrie immediately, but he does enough damage that no matter what face cards I get on turn 4, the 100% crits p much guarantee the kill. I can deal.

  • All Zerkalot cards somehow came up in W1.
    welp screw me I guess

  • Not only did all Zerkalot cards come up on W1 but somehow all T4 cards are Unlimited Skadi Works.
    What have I done to deserve this. God doesn’t exist, gacha rate up is a lie, my life is terrible what even is the point if this takes TWO extra turns. Guess I’ll die. Also with this luck Zerkalot probably died within those two extra turns. #firstworldproblems

tl;dr: 3 NPs guaranteed, 3 turn full clear not.

If you have the resources, single KoM with plugsuit Waver feels a lot more stable imo since it guarantees a stronger third NP? I still can’t guaranteed 3T every single time since W3 is always RNG dependent on whether any Zerkalot face cards show up with my current atk/skill/NP levels, but at least it saves a Skadi S2 for W3, Waver gives atk + crit up, plugsuit gives atk up, and you can stun the leftmost Valk if you’re unlucky and don’t have any Zerkalot face cards for T3.

I’m hoping I can figure out something better by the next event that does the bonus servant drop boost thing, though. Hope you manage to pull her as well!

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Remember that there’s a buster buff on True Ether as well, so you can always proc that for any B facecard in w3.

You might able to close the gap in the near future with Skadi’s bond CE.

Unfortunately, my Lancelot is still at NP1, so I really appreciate you for testing this recipe!

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No problem! Thanks for coming up with the idea in the first place! It was fun to test while farming for aurora steel.

Sadly with my current levels the TE buster buff doesn’t make enough of a difference to finish off the last Valk, but maybe it’ll work for other nodes/I can get more skills up by farming QP and that’ll help stabilize damage output/the people on my support list who had Skadi max ascended and 10/10/10 on the first day will have her bond CE very soon. :'D

Hope you’re able to get the extra Lancelots that you deserve! LOL

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That was an impressive analysis and extremely comprehensive.
The NP damage requirements for the different CEs and Classes will be a very useful for approximating which nodes this recepie can handle.

Thank you for the hard work.

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Was gonna say swap your lancer support to Cu because Gae Bolg needs a target to shoot at but you’ve already swapped it. Very Clever.

Now just make sure don’t roll on Medb’s banner so the right one comes through.

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