Would this work? (TTG)

So I like tinkering with game mechanics because I find game balancing weirdly fun and it got me to thinking while I was doing other things. I like forum roleplays, but they inevitably descend into madness and anarchy, but at the same time I don’t like the idea that I need to schedule a get together and crack open a custom D&D module to roleplay Fate with a little bit of structure. So I tried to come up with a simplified(still a TT system so simplified is like 5 pages or less[and most of that skill details) role play system and I’d like opinions:

Basic Conceit: The basic idea of this system is to remove a lot of the minutiae that bogs down most role playing. Constantly asking for rolls and social stats might be useful for a dedicated session, but for a forum the role playing has to be more interspersed. So this system has no rules for role playing, only combat, and even then only to ensure an argument doesn’t break out. Aside from the GM(whoever starts the thread) stating what the setting is and overseeing combat, there are no rules.

Summary

Any participant can pick a role to play, including villains and GMs. Limitations would be enforced by the GM(Ruler Servant[and Master if desired]). GM would set the number of villains available, the number of people who could apply to be Counter Force Operatives, as well as the setting: Holy Grail War(7 Servants. Avenger and/or Foreigner), Grand Holy Grail War(14 Servants. Avenger and/or Foreigner), or Mooncell Holy Grail War(7 Servants. Moon Cancer and Alter Ego).

Classes:

Summary

Holy Grail War Participants: Saber, Lancer, Archer, Rider, Caster, Assassin, & Berserker
Game Masters: Ruler & Counter Force Operatives.
Villains: Avenger, Foreigner, or Moon Cancer/Alter Egos.

Holy Grail War Participants win if they are the last surviving member of their class and obtain the Grail. Game Masters jointly win if the grail is obtained and the Villain is defeated. Villains win if the grail is destroyed or all Holy Grail War Participants and Game Masters are dead at the same time.

Combat Rules: Combat rules are only for determining how damaged a Servant is and how effective they are given what Hero they are. You would expect a Servant like Hassan(any) to be very good at evasion, but less good at direct combat, while a Servant like Hercules to be fantastic in a fight, but be as subtle as a bull. To this point Servants get a bonus based on their Class as well as Skills based on what Servant they are in particular. How they fight, What they do, when/if they use their Noble Phantasm are all up to the Players involved. The rules and subsequent rolls only affect Who wins each clash.

Summary
  1. Open Challenges may be issued or ignored at any time with no repercussions. A discovered Servant may be Challenged immediately, if ignored discovered Servant must make a successful Withdraw Roll or lose their first Initiative action.
    1a. Initiative order is: Challenged’s Servant, Challenger’s Servant, Challenger’s Master, Challenged’s Master. And Servant Initiative swaps every turn.
    1b. Allied Servants and Masters are added to the end of the Initiative list. In the event of an equal number of Allied Servants on both sides a separate combat is initiated.
  2. Combat would be freestyle, you describe what your doing and what you’re rolling. All rolls(1 d20, or 2 d6 either would work) would be opposed rolls but have modifiers based on the Servants rolling. GMs would be able to flag an action as inappropriate and either make the violator choose a different action(if it was an honest mistake), or intervene and cancel their action for the turn(if they are attempting to abuse the system).
  3. Rolls are: Attack(counter with attack, evasion, or support), AoE attack(requires setup or unique skill)(counter with evasion), Support(use a servant non-attack NP, setup AoE attack, use defensive measures)(cannot be countered, see 3b), Utility(using equipment[Rider mounts, Assassin smoke bombs, Caster spell components etc.])(counter with Support), Evasion(dodge an attack[gives +2 to next Evasion counter action])(counter with AoE[no damage dealt if counter successful]), or Withdraw(leave a combat encounter)(counter with Attack).
    3a. For Attack, countering with attack will go to whoever has the higher roll(both take damage on a tie). Countering with evasion will allow free use of Support without use of your initiative. Countering with Support will give a +2 to your roll on top of your bonuses, but would deal no damage to your opponent.
    3b. For Support, roll affects degree of success or failure. Minimum roll is abject failure. Low half roll(below 7 on 2d6 or below 11 on 1d20) requires another action slot to complete. High half roll(7 or higher on 2d6 or 11o higher on 1d20) completes Support action as stated. Maximum roll completes Support action and grants additional action.
    3c. For Withdraw a Servant’s Evasion is countered with Enemy Servant’s Attack. Winner goes to the higher roll. If a Withdraw is successful the Servant escapes, but retains whatever damage they took in the fight. If a Withdraw is unsuccessful the Servant takes full damage and must continue the fight.
    3d. Master Rolls would be limited to two types of Actions: Servant Support: All Masters have access to this skill though it is only for giving your Servant extra defenses. The second action would depend on the type of Mage a Master chose to be. For Reinforcement Types: Joint Attack - Add a +1 to your next Servant Attack. For Ranged Types: Quickening - Allow your Servant to use an AoE attack without setup(limited to 1 use for every 3 rounds of combat). For Strategic Types: Reserves - Allows your Servant to equip without an action or gain +1 when using an equipped item.
    3e. Countering a Roll does not take your initiative action. Counters are considered part of the Initiator’s action.
  4. Health would be a 5 hit system, or use the GP stat chart for durability to determine health(would recommend a +2 to health on top of GP’s durability rating if that route is chosen). Losing a fight does not immediately kill a Servant, Servants must lose 3 fights to be permanently removed from a campaign. Masters cannot be killed until their Servant is killed.
    4a. After losing a fight a Player may choose to perform one of two actions: Retreat - Master and Servant fall back to their hideout. Second Wind - Begin another round of combat, downed Servant is restored to full health, Victor Servant is given half their health back(Victor Servant may turn down a Second Wind in which case see Initiative).
  5. Each class at baseline would have a benefit to combat based on their class. Saber would gain a +1 to any roll in open combat save Evasion from AoE. Archer would gain a +1 to any action at range and an additional +1 to AoE. Lancer would gain a +2 to any counter rolls(lancers are durable MFs). Riders would gain a +1 to any action using a mount and an additional +1 to Utility. Assassin would gain a +2 to evasion as well as a unique Initiative action useable once per fight: Ambush(Uncounterable attack. Must be used immediately or requires a setup using Support]). Caster would gain a +1 to any action in their territory as well as a +1 to AoE and Support. Berserker would gain a +3 to attack and a +1 to AoE attack.
    5a. Ruler would gain a +3 to Support and Evasion. Counter Force Operatives would gain a+2 to Evasion and a +1 to Attack.
    5b. Avenger would gain a +2 to Attack and could not be withdrawn from. Foreigner would negate all Class based bonus(skill bonuses still apply).
    5c. Moon Cancer would gain a +2 to Attack and AoE. Alter Ego would gain a +4 to Attack.
  6. Offensive Noble Phantasms have to be declared, both sides will use their Noble Phantasm and roll whatever skill is determined to be relevant to their it. Winner deals an additional +2 damage. Usable once per in-game day(so be careful about back-to-back fights). Player to initiate Noble Phantasm round has their Servant’s name permanently revealed and their weakness exposed(Player forced to counter will have their identity concealed until they are made to counter a second Noble Phantasm, or initiate one themselves).
    6a. Having your weakness exposed means all opponents have a permanent +1 to any attack levied against your Servant.
  7. Skills will be assigned from GP wiki(unless someone has a better idea) and will be given a +1 to skills ranked C or worse, a +2 to skills ranked B or A, and a +3 to skills ranked EX(when applicable).
  8. Rulers and Counter Force Operatives can be attacked and downed(they are still Servants). A downed Ruler will suspend GM ability to intervene to 1 in-game day, as well as add one additional slot to the Villain category. A downed Counter Force Operative will remove GM ability to intervene for one fight. If there are no able-bodied GM class Servants then the Player to down the Ruler class Servant may alter the setting of the game once(see Basic Conceit).
    8a. If a Player downs either a Ruler or Counter Force Operative they are given the option to side with a Villain when the Villain shows themselves next to the Player. Players discovered cooperating with the Villain by a GM class Servant will be considered Villains by the GMs, though they are still eligible to win the Holy Grail at the end.
  9. Alliances are free game to all Players. Combat is still considered over when the first Servant is downed or withdraws.
  10. You have 3 Command Spells. They can be used to: Augment Noble Phantasm damage(+1), Immediately withdraw a servant with no consequences, or permanently upgrade a skill one rank. Command Spells do not regenerate, additional Command Spells can only be given out by Ruler as a reward for cooperation and come from a limited stock.
    10a. Ruler has 12 Command Spells and gains an additional action to perform with them: Stun - Force a targeted non-Villain Servant to forgo their action once.

Combat Mock-up: Because combat can be tricky to visualize purely by reading a ruleset I have written a mock-up battle that will attempt to clarify how the system works. In this mock-up the combatants are Yan Qing and Iskandar, both will have 5 health. Since Master Combat might not even be a thing in the final version of this I’ll leave the Masters out for now.

Summary

Yan Qing's action

Assassin rushes forward, parkours off a wall and delivers a kick to Iskandar’s head - Attack Roll: 7+2(Ruffian skill) Total: 9

Rider Shoulder checks Assassin before he can connect - Support Counter-Roll: 8+2(Support Defense Roll)+1(Magic Resistance Skill) Total: 11

Winner Rider

RIder barrels into Assassin, getting inside his grip, and throws him back.

Iskandar's action!

Rider holds his blade aloft and summons his chariot to bare down on Assassin - Utility: 8+2(Riding)+1(Rider class) Total: 11

Assassin waits until the last moment and jumps above the blades - Evasion Counter- Roll: 11+2(Assassin class) Total: 13

Winner Assassin. Successfully evading an attack gives Assassin a free Support roll.

Assassin vanishes from view, waiting to ambush his opponent - Support Bonus-Roll(DC 7): 6+1(Presence Concealment skill) Total: 7

Iskandar's action

Seeing no opponent Rider takes a defensive stance, watching the shadows - Support Roll(DC 7): 3(No bonuses) Total: 3

Rider can see nothing and turns, leaving his back exposed

Yan Qing's action

Assassin springs from the shadows kicking Rider off of his chariot - Special Action Ambush(cannot be countered) Ambush actions remaining today is now 0. Rider loses one health, 4/5.

Yan Qing's action

Assassin uses his Unique Skill Doppelganger. A shadow appears behind Rider and begins attacking in tandem with Assassin - Roll AoE: 10+2(Ruffian Skill) Total: 12

Rider attempts to outwit Assassin and ducks right as they are about to connect - Evasion Counter-Roll: 9(No bonuses) Total: 9

WInner Assassin

*Assassin is amused by the amateur move and takes the opportunity to knee Rider back up into a strike that puts Rider through a wall. Rider loses one health, 3/5

Iskandar's action

Rider pulls his sword and attacks - Attack Roll: 11+2(Riding Skill) Total: 13

Assassin attempts to catch the sword and deliver a counter kick - Attack Counter-Roll: 9+2(Ruffian Skill) Total: 11

Winner Rider

Assassin misses his timing and takes a deep slice to his shoulder. Assassin loses one health, 4/5

Iskandar's action

Rider takes the break and combat and recalls his chariot, grabbing the side as it passes and using the momentum to take a swing at Assassin - Attack Roll - 8+1(Rider class)+2(Riding) Total: 11

Assassin attempts to throw his blood into Rider’s eyes to blind him - Evasion Counter-Roll: 4+2(Assassin class) Total: 6

Winner Rider

Rider catches the blood on his blade, then puts it rights back into Assassin’s side directly. Assassin loses one health, 3/5.

Yan Qing's action

Assassin declares Noble Phantasm: “You should know never to rush into enemy territory Rider! Ambush from Ten Sides, Cast No Shadow!” Noble Phantasm Roll: 2+1(Presence Concealment Skill) Total: 3. Assassin’s True Name is Revealed - Yan Qing

**Rider must counter: "I made a promise I must keep to the men who travelled with me and you will not stand in my way! ***************" Noble Phantasm Roll: 10+1(Divinity Skill) Total 11. Rider’s statement is muffled, Counter Noble Phantasm affect prevents Rider’s True Name from being revealed at this time

Winner Rider

Assassin loses 3 health, 0/5.

Assassin is down, the fight is over. Assassin loses one of his three lives, 2/3

Assassin Withdraws back to his hideout

List of Skills: This is literally just a list of every skill listed in the GP wiki and what they would do. Only read if you want the details on what each individual skill does.

Summary

Alter Reactor(+ to one roll of your choice once per day)
At the Boundary(Gain second use of Ambush[usable once per day])
Authority of Beasts(Withdraw works automatically once per day)
Avatar of Rage(Berserker bonus to Attack[usable once per day])
Avenger(+ to Attack)
Becoming Evil(Is treated as an ally by Villains until proven otherwise)
Castle Creation(Grants Territory Creation and Caster bonus for being in territory once per campaign)
Civilization Encroachment(retains bonuses if they would otherwise be removed)
Civilization Contact(+ to Support and Evasion)
Connection to the Root(Allows Servant to act as if aided by Master once per day)
Core of the Goddess(+ to all rolls against opponent of the opposing gender)
Cosmo Reactor(+ to Attack and AoE against altered Spirit Origins)
Dark Divine Core(+ to NP against Servant of Good Alignment)
Dharma of the One Path(Cannot be Ambushed)
Divinity(+ to actions involving NP)
Divinity of the Chief God(Nullify a Noble Phantasm and immediately Withdraw[once per campaign])
Dragon Kin(+ to Health Pool)
Dynasty of Misfortune(+ to any Attack or AoE vs. Ruler class or background)
Entity of the Outer Realm(+ to Utility and Evasion)
Essence of the God of Love(+ to all counter rolls vs opposite gender)
Fairy Contract(Gain one free Support action once per day)
Foreign World(- to all enemy actions in a Mooncell Holy Grail War)
Hard Puncher(++ to Attack when both combatants are unarmed)
Hedonism(++ to Attack when you have double the health of your opponent)
Homunculus(Ability to immediately discern if an individual is Human or not[but not what non-human])
Independent Action(+ to AoE and Support)
Independent Magic(+ to any action involving Magecraft)
Independent Manifestation(Allows Servant to use Master action even when Master is unavailable)
Infinite Magical Energy(Allows instantaneous use of a non-offensive Noble Phantasm once per day)
Inn Creation(+ to non-offensive, non-evasive actions)
Insanity(++ to health, must accept [specified]Challenges, cannot Withdraw)
Ironclad Faith(Is treated an an ally by GMs until proven otherwise)
Item Construction(+ to Utility)
King’s Reflection(Can deflect identification[usable once per campaign])
Logos Eater(+ to health for every Servant downed)
Madness Enhancement(+ to class abilities listed above)
Magic Resistance(+ to support [defense/counter])
Masochistic Spiritualist Disposition(+ to Attack and AoE if you have downed a servant[resets everyday])
Messenger God’s Protection(++ to all counter actions if Allied with another Player)
Mixed-Blood EX(Can determine if an individual is Divine or not)
Nega-Saver(+ to all rolls against GM classes)
Oblivion Creation(Survive an attack that would otherwise down you[X{decided by rank} times per campaign])
One Who Swallow’s the Land(negate territory bonus)
Overhaul(have four lives instead of three, but lose all class bonuses on last life)
Poseidon’s Essence(++ to all rolls in water)
Presence Concealment(+ to Ambush)
Protection of Poseidon(++ to all counter rolls in water)
Pure Body(regain full health after Withdraw[1 time] or Second Wind[once per day])
Riding(+ to Utility and Attack)
Ruffian(+ to Attack and AoE attack)
Scorpius Curse(Start with + health if challenging, - health if challenged)
Sea God’s Blessing(++ to Attack and AoE rolls in water)
Self-Restoration(Regain health per day after a withdraw[decided by rank])
Serpent Goddess Core(Gain use of Ambush if you do not have it)
Snow on Incense-burner Peak(+ to Attack and AoE when significantly elevated)
Solitary Voyage(+ to all counter rolls, Evasion, Support, and Utility if unsupported)
Sunflower’s Curse(You cannot be downed by a Noble Phantasm unless only one health remains)
Surfing(++ to Utility rolls in water)
Sword Aesthetic(always have a weapon)
Territory Creation(+ to territory area)
Therianthropy(+ to Attack and AoE in consecutive battles)
Twin Deities(Guaranteed Withdrawal if you have downed a servant[resets once used])
Ventriloquism(- to enemy counter when withdrawing)
Veteran(+ to any repeated action)

1 Like

sounds cool and all but, could you sum it up

I mean it’s a Ruleset so… Maybe? The gist of it is that there’s no hard rules over role play, only combat, and even in combat you can choose how you perform an action. So say you had Iskandar and you rolled up on a Servant while in his chariot, you could attack with the chariot, gaining advantages to your Rider class and you would describe what you wanted to do. Your opponent would choose how they wanted to counter you(could be counter attacking, could be dodging, could be just standing there stopping the chariot dead). Then you’d roll whatever dice you had(let’s just say 2d6 for now), add the bonuses, and whoever had the higher value would get to do what they wanted. IE if you won Iskander would slam the enemy into a wall with his chariot, if he won maybe he just straight choke slams your mounts to the ground.

You need some sort of deciding factor if you’re going to roleplay in any setting otherwise someone will go out of control. I’m trying to put together a system that has a deciding factor without getting too bogged down in details. Also keep in mind that while that post may look long, it would essentially be like me posting the ENTIRE player’s handbook from D&D for this system.

I finished reading it and I’m still lost, my tiredness, but I’ll learn along the way, it doesn’t bother me that they kill me on the first turn (I remembered Spartacus)

I’ll post a quick tab of a Servant in a moment

I wish I could write a Caster that can become Saber like Jekyll transforms into Hyde, would it be possible

@KamikazeAardvark

It would be a good idea if the priority of an attack is determined by the Agility stats, the precision and critical probability (not counting assassins) according to luck, attack power according to Mana for Magical Attacks and Strength for Physical Attacks, something like that goes my idea

I also think that a good story will only flow if no one becomes extremely competitive

I mean the idea is to avoid stat sheets like that, that’s why Initiative swaps every turn and both of you get to act without worrying about how reacting to your opponent might delay you. You mind if I just assign you and me a servant so I can write up what a single turn of combat would look like between JUST two servants?

sounds like a good idea and I can learn how your system works

What does TTG stand for?

tabletop game

Oh

Whatever then

Alright so the combatants are you with Iskandar and me with Yan Qing. You are out hunting for Servants and you come across Yan Qing spying on someone.

Iskander issues a challenge: Assassin, show me your warrior’s pride! Fight me!
Yan Qing accepts: You’ll regret it!

Yan Qing's action!

Yan Qing rushes forward, parkours off a wall and delivers a kick to Iskandar’s head - Attack Roll: 7+2(Ruffian skill) Total: 9

Iskandar Speeds away before Yan Qing can connect - Evasion Roll: 8+2(Riding skill)+1(Rider Class) Total: 11

Iskandar successfully evades Yan Qing’s attack - 0 damage. Evasion successful! Iskandar gets a free Support action

Iskandar deploys blades from chariot - Support prepare AoE Roll: 8+2(Riding)+1(Rider class) Total: 10. Success! Iskandar can now launch an AoE attack

Iskandar's action!

Iskandar surges forward in his chariot, blades slicing everything in the vicinity - AoE Roll: 4+1(Rider class) Total: 5

Yan Qing turns and runs, attempting to get above the blades before it’s too late - Evasion Roll: 11+2(Assassin class) Total: 13

Yan Qing successfully evades Yan Qing’s attack - 0 damage. Evasion successful! Yan Qing gets a free Support action

Yan Qing vanishes from view, waiting to ambush his opponent - Support Roll: 6+1(Presence Concealment skill) Total: 7. Success! Yan Qing has vanished without a trace and can now ambush his opponent


Then it would be Yan Qing’s turn followed by Iskandar. Basically you’ll always get two actions in a row after the first turn as the Servant initiative swaps back and forth, gives players a bit of momentum to toy with.

1 Like

I’ve reworked the OP. Didn’t know how to do the Summary thing before now so I’ve added the specifics of how the system worked to individual summaries while also adding a brief description to summarize what’s intended in each section as well as a FULL mock-up battle that attempts to explore all aspects of each action and counter.

2 Likes

Hmmmmmmmmm…yeah this looks cool. Question: would bounded fields be a factor?

If Master Combat looks like it should be added then yes Master actions would allow the Masters to setup or alter a Bounded field. However to keep from getting bogged down in a tug of war whatever effect the Bounded Field has is unchangeable once setup and would apply to both sides. So if you made a Bounded Field that allowed you Servant to access their magic more easily it would provide a +1 to Attack for BOTH Servants in combat.

Honestly, I was thinking of Casters when I asked that question. I hadn’t been considering masters using them. Though I definitely could see a master setting up a field to deaden sound in an area to better help their Assassin or something like that.

Yes I would throw it under the Support actions for Servants. It would still need to make sense in context but Support is a pretty broad category as it can be used as an action to nerf enemy attack, setup special attacks, pretty much anything that doesn’t have to do with either dealing or avoiding damage.

I don’t really get what the point in having the servants have both a turn and a counter each round is. Surely it would be better for both players to declare their actions for the round and a roll and then have the GM compare and dictate what happens, more like Diplomacy than D&D.

As for die types, 2d6 is generally better than 1d20 because it gives a normal distribution rather than a flat distribution, meaning that bonuses are much more impactful. A +2 in 2d6 is huge, it gives you about a 2/3 chance of winning vs. a +0, whereas with 1d20 a +2 gives you about a 57% chance of winning vs. a +0. Having said that though, you may want to scale back on some of the bonuses if you use 2d6. Berserkers having +3 and alter egos having +4 is actually insane. Alter Egos have around an 85% chance of winning vs. a +0.

Now, for the declarable actions, I don’t see why you would ever declare support. Getting a bonus to another attack isn’t worth giving up an attack. Think about True Strike from D&D. On top of that, a successful evade gives you a free support anyway. Sure, if you max roll a support you get an extra turn, but that’s either a 1/20 or a 1/36 chance.

The challenged servant going first also seems weird. It makes it optimal to wait for someone else to challenge you and discourages proactivity.

For servant stats, why not just use the servant stats? There’s no point in using the highly subjective GP spider diagrams when these things exist.

Honestly, I think that overall you’re better off thinking about a way to reskin Diplomacy rather than anything else.

1 Like

When I was toying with the basic idea in my head I quickly learned that because certain action would be too powerful to just DO they might require some prep to make balanced, hence flipping Initiative after each round. But when I did that it quickly became a slugging match of more powerful skills or a DPS race using straight attack. So I added counter rolls. Some counter rolls give a bonus, specifically Evasion, which allows you to get a free setup, which gives you more flexibility in how you set up future attacks. At the same time some Servants are ripe for slugging matches so countering with Attack gives them an option to excel even when defending. I just found using what I’d written up counter rolls made the fights more unpredictable, which is what Servant battles are supposed to be in a Holy Grail War. However I have no idea what Diplomacy is so maybe I’m inadvertently cribbing too much from that system, don’t really have the disposable income to pick up TTGs as much as I would like.

Agree on the dice, hence why the work-up uses 2d6.

Sometimes an opponent may hide and not be targetable, at that point Support can be used to prepare a better attack for the next round, or just up your defense. In theory Support can do nearly anything that doesn’t involve dealing damage directly. AoE is specifically a kind of attack that cannot be defended against or counter-attacked, only Evaded and some Servants have little or no bonus to Evasion, BUT AoE normally REQUIRES a setup, which would require Support. Hopefully that clears up why the action exists, I don’t think it would be used often, but certain Classes and Servants have a reason to need it.

Yes the Challenged goes first and yes it discourages engaging in combat unless you are confident. In my opinion it would make sense to go with this in a setting like a Holy Grail War where caution and stacking the deck are considered the best ways to win. Could go with a coin flip though, the point of this thread is to work out what would/could work.

Using the in-game Servant stats to determine health would be fine. I honestly forgot those existed :rofl:

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As said above, I could see declaring a support action pre-battle (particularly in the form of bounded fields which masters and Casters can use) in order to gain an advantage or give the enemy a disadvantage.

By the way, let me know if I come off as being too defensive. I genuinely want feedback on this and am doing my best to explain and consider new aspects, but by virtue of having taken the time to think/write this up I may be too close to it at times. Thanks in advance.

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OK since there’s a little confusion on that let me provide an example. Say you summon Ryouma as your Servant, he and Oryou are both scouting different locations and Ryouma gets spotted by a Servant and cannot withdraw. In order to bring Oryou back into the fight he would need to use a Support action to summon her to the fight otherwise, in this case, any bonuses he had would be halved he would also be unable to use his Noble Phantasm or perform an AoE attack.

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